Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube - https://youtu.be/vEZrwyAn-PE

Best friends since the age of 18, Peter Calicchia and Francesco Casale turned their passion for sports and rehab into PFP Strength and Conditioning https://pfperform.com. Launched during PT school, their business blends training, boxing, and recovery to help clients unlock peak performance. Tune in for their inspiring journey, entrepreneurial hustle, and how they’re shaping strength - physically and mentally - for every client.
Instagram: @p.f.perform
YouTube: P&F Performance

Transcript

Voiceover: So you're a PT or PTA grad who's feeling the spark of something more. Maybe you dream of building your own business, one that's constructed around your vision, one that empowers you to make a real difference on your terms. This feeling, it's the entrepreneurial itch. And you're not alone. Countless PTs and PTAs are taking the leap to entrepreneurship, crafting careers that are as unique as they are. 
Welcome to the Innovate and Rehabilitate the Entrepreneurial PT podcast. In each episode, we'll dive deep into the world of PT-preneurship with Inspiring physical therapists and physical therapist assistants just like you, who are crushing it on their terms. We'll uncover their secrets, their struggles, and the incredible impact they're making. From building your PT boss dreams to navigating the business side of things, will equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to turn your vision into reality.

So, whether you're just curious about starting your own business, or you're already out there making your dreams a reality, this podcast is for you. Get ready to unleash your inner entrepreneur. Let's do this!

Scott Giles (SG): Hello and welcome. I'm Scott Giles, founder of Scorebuilders and I'll be your host for this podcast. I'm excited to introduce today's guests, Peter Calicchia and Francesco Casale.

The pair's been best friends since they were 18 years old and co-founded PFP Strength and Conditioning while enrolled in their respective physical therapy programs at New York Medical College and Mercy University. Their journey into physical therapy was fueled by a love for sports, first hand experiences with injury, and a strong dedication to helping others.

PFP strength and Conditioning offers traditional training sessions, online training, and even boxing. Whether working with athletes, individuals recovering from injury, or those seeking to enhance overall Wellness, they're dedicated to fostering both physical and mental growth, ensuring their clients reach their full performance potential.

Thanks for joining us today, gentlemen. I've been looking forward to this discussion.

Peter Calicchia (PC): Great to be here, Scott.

Francesco Casale (FC) Likewise, thanks Scott.

SG: Yeah. All right, Yeah, yeah. Thanks. Let's jump in.

Let's go back and turn the clock back a few years and talk about how each of you came to pursue a career in physical therapy.

PC: So I'll start. I was training for football at high school in Iota Prep in New Rochelle. And during that junior year where I was trying to train, I got hurt, injured my lower back, back squatting. And about a couple days after that it tightened up really badly to the point where the pain was unbearable while I was sitting down taking my English final. And you usually go this the normal route that everybody goes. You go to the ortho, you get an evaluation, shoot you over the cortisone shot. It helps for a little bit, doesn't really give you a long-lasting relief. You go to PT. It was the outpatient mill, 4 to 5 patients an hour where you're not really seeing the quality care that you need to get better or the care that you actually deserve. 

And when I was 17, I was living with excruciating lower back pain for 10 months to the point where February break happened and I made an ultimatum to myself that I need to find the answer to this because I can't be living like this as a 17 year old. So I dove into anatomy, Physiology, biomechanics, looking things up on the Internet and YouTube, devised a game plan for myself and implemented it with extreme discipline to the point where I saw immense changes in my body. The pain dissipated, my mindset change to a more positive outlook, and my quality of life improved dramatically to the point where I was just overflowing with joy and I couldn't imagine doing anything else but to give that to as many people as possible. And that's why I knew that was my profession and my purpose in life.

SG: Yeah, that seems pretty clear that you maybe want to go down that path after you pursue something like that. I just, I can't even imagine myself being having the structure at 17 or 18 years old to go through that process. But, I mean, living with that kind of intense pain for 10 months, I mean, you're desperate right at that point. So, you know, fantastic. You're able to come up for a solution with that.

Francesco, what about you? Do you have anything that dramatic?

FC: So it's a little different, but similar. So there's a few a few key experiences that led me down this path. And from a young age, I was always immersed in sports. I went to Stepen High School, which is very sport oriented. And even then I knew that I wanted to do something sport medicine related. I explored my options, if that was athletic training, personal training, physical therapy. But I saw guidance and one of the biggest tips I was given was to shadow and to see some of these professions hands on. And one moment that solidified my decision was I was working with a patient who was in a wheelchair for like 4 years and I saw him take his first steps. So in that moment I kind of knew that I was in the right place. 

And then at the same time, I experienced a profound loss in my family. So my grandmother did pass away, but she was hospitalized frequently due to illness. And during one of her admissions, not a single physical therapist attempted to get her up for about 7 days. So she was immobile, she couldn't walk. And, and that was kind of the, the start of the end. And then as that was happening, I also kind of found my own love for fitness. I went on a journey. I lost about 50 lbs. I found my love for powerlifting and kind of all these things happening simultaneously. You know, it reinforced my passion for health and Wellness. And I wanted to be someone who empowers individuals to push their limits, optimize their performance and maintain the highest quality of life for as long as possible.

SG: Wow, It's those are two compelling stories. That's impressive. You ended up in the right place, obviously. So then how did how did the relationship between you 2 formed? I know you're both at Manhattan College. Did you make a connection right away during the undergraduate program?

FC: Yeah. So we funny story first day I saw Pete was orientation and he was just he caught my eye. He was sitting with like the most perfect posture, taking an absurd amount of notes, just like, I'm like, who is this kid? And one thing led to another. I saw him in the gym one day using these crazy squat shoes I've never seen before, squatting an immense amount of weight. I was like, I need, I need to go talk to this kid. What, what is he doing that I'm not?

And yeah, one thing led to another and then the rest is history. We became best friends. We had a, we had, we shared the passion of like movement and like kind of changing what physical therapy is. And yeah, it started, it started in undergrad and then kind of bloomed into what we started here at PFP.

SG: Peter, did you know your posture would be such a, you know, primary determinant and friendship in college? I mean, were you thinking about that? Were you trying to look kind of tight, you know, right up straight?

PC: I don't know, not at all, but I guess he's got eyes on me. So, you know, he's he's he's he's analyzing my posture. He's analyzing how I squat. He's a PT in the making before he even knew it.

SG: Yeah. No, no, you guys have clearly have great observational skills. It's funny too, because the powerlifting thing, like, I mean, look, this is probably just who I am and who I hang out with, but I don't know a single person that powerlifts. But like, I but it's a thing. It's it's clearly a thing. Yeah, I guess I I missed out, but no, that's great. 
All right, so then let's fast forward. You folks both graduated and I know you pursued some additional certification, I believe the CSCS exam, and then decided to that you're going to see some patients privately. But tell me about how the relationship form that this actually became, you know, a business concept and that you were going to do this together.

FC: Yeah, So we were actually going to the same gym together at the time. So we were both done with undergrad preparing for our CSCS, and it was about a time in our didactic careers that we knew we had the chance to kind of study and do well. And we passed in August of 2023.

But even during those study sessions together, we were kind of like playing around with the idea of like, what would be pretty cool to, you know, go into business together if that's doing something similar to the movement systems or if that's going with strength conditioning and making our own strength conditioning company. So the talks were there. And then after we passed in August of 2023, we both hopped on a call and we were like, are we doing this separately or we're doing this together? So as you can see, we made the decision to do it together.

But another pivotal point that I would like to mention is before we said the hard yes, we did some self-reflection and really asked each other why we're going into business together. And I think that sense of communication and transparency set a trend that's still happening in this moment. And I think it is one of the reasons that we've been able to work together so well is just being transparent, having open communication, being accountable. And, and it really did it did good for our business.

SG: No it's great. I mean, it seems like you guys were practically separated at birth, you know, in terms of mission, powerlifting, you know, everything else, which is which is great. And you both seem very grounded and, and very honest, which, you know, look, I mean, probably the most critical factor in running a business.

OK, So you knew you wanted to use your developing skills. You knew these skills were going to continue to flourish in physical therapy school. But then how did you go from, yeah, let's do something together. And So what did you settle on and, and how did you kind of break out those responsibilities?

PC: Yeah, So what we were able to do is within that conversation that we had, we were able to see each other's strengths and weaknesses. So for example, Francesco ran his own fitness page for about a year before doing the combo with both of us. So he was really good at the social media aspect, the camera, the marketing in that regard. I had no clue how to do that. That's not my style. That's not my MO. I'm more of the Type A personality, give me a bunch of numbers, give me a bunch of administrative stuff, logistical stuff, legal stuff. I'll take care of that piece. So that kind of was using each other's strengths together and complementing each other's weaknesses. So we didn't really delineate who's going to do what. It just kind of coalesced to that point.

And that allowed us to hit the ground running in terms of after we got the CSCS in August of 2023, we started the Instagram page. Cesco knew what to do. He was teaching me along the ropes, telling me what to say. I had the ideas of the content. So it was a good combination there. We got our name out there. He designed the logo. He's more of the creative piece of the of the dynamic duo. I am not, I'll just be honest. But he got the, he got, he got the logo out. Then I was able to take that and talk to some lawyers about getting the trademark going for that logo. Then I was the one that did the application for the LLC. And as we're doing that, we're just collecting more clients, building up our books. And then eventually we hit the ground running when the LLC was established in December 2023.

SG: So at what point were you and your physical therapy programs at that point in time? 

PC: I, when I was studying for this, CSCS I just finished my 1st clinical rotation at Stanford Hospital and I was transition. There was a transition semester between that point in the fall semester.

FC: So I was in my second year, but I haven't, I did not do a clinical rotation yet. So we were yeah, second year and I was taking some exercise science classes in the DPT curriculum. So that also helped kind of set a good foundation to take the CSCS.

SG: Yeah, for sure. So how did you balance this? I mean, look, being, as you guys know, being in PT school is a full-time job plus. And now you're, you know, even though Peter, you know, you're like, hey, look, I'm better with the numbers. I'm better with some of the legal stuff. Like, look, you, you still have to learn that stuff, right? You may be good for it, It may come quickly to you, but that's, that's foreign material for people as they're trying to, you know, look, what kind of corporations should we be? How do we get a trademark? And it is wonderful you guys were so complimentary in terms of your skill sets, but clearly you had to have a willingness to take to take on the unknown in in order to make this viable. I mean, you know, we say these things in passing like getting a trademark. I mean, these things are not trivial and they're not easy. So tell us more about that, that kind of discovery process of what you didn't even know you needed to know at the time.

PC: So I would say I'll, I'll, I'll chime in first and then I'll let Cesco go.

First thing with the legal perspective, there are a bunch of people in our network that we can talk to that we can ask questions of. And then one of my classmates has an aunt who was a trademark lawyer. So just asking people asking around you, you get, you get to find connections.

Our business model is that business is, relationships use the people that, you know, ask them questions because we built a solid foundation with them to be able to get us to the answers where we need to know. I don't know anything. I'll ask around and I'll eventually find the answer to help me get to where I want to go. And then we'll bounce off each other in terms of ideas. Hey, do you know what can we do here? Talk to this person. Talk to this person. Use both of our networks. That's the benefit of having both of us.

SG: Francesco you want to add anything to that?

FC: Yeah. So mentorship aside, that's definitely #1 using our network, having mentors kind of guide us through some of the things that we didn't exactly know what to do. But one thing I always say is that physical therapists are really good critical thinkers and decision makers and that skill set can't be taught. So when we have such a drive and such a passion for bridging the gap of strength conditioning and physical therapy, and, and that's the underlying like fire that keeps us going. We were willing to figure out any answer to any problem that came our way.

So we might not know it in that moment, but we would do anything in our power to find that answer if it's using our own resources, if it's asking help for mentors, if it's talking to other business owners that have kind of gone through that same path. But I think the underlying thing that really drove us was our passion for our mission.

SG: That's great. Yeah. I mean, you clearly you have to use resources and you got to be creative, right? Because it's not, you don't have unlimited budgets, you don't have unlimited time. There are a lot of things impacting you here.

What do you think on the net influence on your physical therapy education? Do you think that having this business concurrently, was that a plus? In other words, did that keep the fire kind of going during some of these dark times that kind of occurred during your PT experience or do you feel like, you know, you couldn't engage fully in the academic experience like maybe you would have liked to had you not had the business?

FC: So I, I think they worked really well together. So I believe that it, it enabled us to apply our DPT education into our rehab-based intervention strategies. So just having a keener sense of how people move, how people move, what deficits they may have, and it allowed us to, it allowed us to keep people healthy while trying to progressively overload them simultaneously.

And it also made us become extremely efficient, especially with time management, our focus, our efforts and time to become more pivotal in managing everything on our plate. We had to stay ahead of school work. We had to study prior, so we had time to build programs, train clients and advance the business forward. But I think in terms of education specifically having an opportunity to learn the things we were learning in school, but apply them in that moment really helped connect some of the dots into some of the principles that we were learning.

SG: That's great. I can see that especially in your case, Francesco, where you hadn't been out on a full time clinical experience yet. You're probably like dying to get your hands on patients, right? And I know you had some previous experience with that in terms of a personal trainer, etcetera.

All right. So then so you get together, we're going to we're going to do this together. Our paths are going to be connected. We've made this decision.
 How did you decide what kind of offerings you were going to have and then how did you make the connections at, you know, different facilities in order to be able to have a venue where you could actually treat people?

PC: Yeah. So we offer, first we offer programming program is just you write a specific workout plan for someone over a six week or a four week period and you hand that to them and then you would just text them every single week to see how it's going. 
We offered online coaching, which is programming plus a little bit more with our expertise. We gave about 3 to 5 minute personal video to that person going over the exact numbers that you hit, what we want you to see for the next week, looking at, breaking down technique, but also seeing how that person moves other things that they need help in terms of nutrition, in terms of mobility stuff. We're more hands on, more present with that person.

In terms of online coaching, we offer one-on-one training sessions in terms of whether it's training somebody to get stronger, training somebody while navigating an injury or boxing. Like you talked about before. We offered injury rehabilitation where we can use the education that we received as students at physical therapy and use some hands-on skills that were within our scope as strategic condition coaches to then be able to provide that rehabilitation piece for people.

Another thing that we recently developed was sports performance. One quote that I really like is by Teddy Roosevelt. Credit goes to the men in the arena. We're both boxers, we're both powerlifters, bodybuilders, runners. We have that what we call exercise empathy where we understand what it's like to be in that high stakes situation. So that's the first buy in for people to work with us in that sports performance wing.

The second thing is my third clinical was with resilient performance physical therapy in New York City, but they also had a sports performance complex with Annex in New Jersey where I got to see sports performance right in front of me and learn from the nitty gritty pieces of that. And Cesco's last clinical was with champion in Boston. So combining that educational piece from sports performance and everything that we do in our own training combines to give us the much, much more quality for that wing down the line when we're eventually physical therapist. 

And to touch base on the other piece about how do we get to different gyms, it's simply just reaching out to somebody in terms of a conversation, being as transparent as open as possible in terms of what we're trying to build, what we're trying to do, whether there's a relationship there, whether it's just collaborating for content, whether it's hey, can we start putting some of our clients there? Can we start training some of our clients there or it's just simply, hey, just stay in the network, stay in conversations, stay in communication and then just go on from there?

SG: OK, great. What about pricing? How did you come up with your pricing model?

PC: So I'll talk about that as well. What we decided with the gyms in terms of rent, we had to figure out how much was rent, how much percent stays behind into the business and then how much do we want to make per hour. So the in person training sessions, we had a certain number and then we took minus subtracted 30 from it. That's the rent that we're paying for both gyms that we're at and we'll talk about those two gyms soon. And then we took 20% off of the top and then whatever was left went to either Francesco or me, depending on who did the session. In terms of programming, it was a fixed rate. In terms of online coaching was a little bit more it's or higher ticket item because there's more involved. And with all of those, all of those packages, we like to offer, let's say a 10 session package or a three month commitment for programming, because we knew if we get you in the door for a longer period of time, you can be more consistent. We can have more sustainability in the training sessions, in the programming. And we know with our expertise as both soon to be doctors and physical therapy, and strength and conditioning specialists that we can make progress in those three months, which will give you that incentive to come on through.

And plus, what we do, we keep track of the tangible results and the objective data for each of the clients so they can see objectively their progress in the first three months as opposed to us just saying, hey, you're doing great, you're making great progress. If you see the actual numbers, whether you're an in-person training client or also a programming coaching client, you can see that. And then that that's more data for you to say, yes, I actually do see myself making progress and that makes you want to stay out with us.

SG: That's, that's great. Let's hear about tell me a couple of success stories that get you guys fired up that kind of speak to the quality of the services that you're offering. 

FC: So the success story that we wanted to talk about was actually a great story. I was working at a gym at the time and one of our now clients was dead lifting. And he came over to me and he was like, I heard you're a deadlift specialist. And at those times I was like, oh OK, that's that's cool that someone told you that. But he really didn't ask for any tips in the moment. But I offered him that. If you need anything, don't hesitate. I'm in your corner. Tips, tricks, whatever you may need for the deadlift, you know who to come to. And then one thing led to another and I was giving him some tips and he was making some progress. And it was a back and forth between who was programming him, like who was his coach at the time and some of the principles that I've learned with CSCS and, and stuff like that.

And I just told him I was like, give me a shot. What's there to lose? Give me a shot. Like I'll program you free of charge. He was, he was a close friend at the time. Let's see where this can go. And then Pete can kind of continue on with how that turned into a success story. But something as simple as being willing to help a stranger in a moment can kind of build something as beautiful as our relationship with the specific client.

SG: Absolutely.

PC: And I'll continue that story. So I, I was invited in and then because we were both the tag team, we're together in 2023. We really worked on his technique. We really worked on his progress. He was feeling confident. He signs up for a meet April of 2024. Before we get him into that meet prep program, he severely injuries his lower back. And we're talking injury where he can't sleep, whether it's on his back, on his side, on his stomach, can't fall asleep. He's in excruciating pain. The only rest he gets is putting his hands like this and putting his head right on his head, on his hands, trying to close his eyes that way. That was the only way that he can sleep. And he is someone that is going to light up a room. He's always going to go to every single person, say hey, how you doing? How was your day? Got the biggest smile on his face. And after he got injured, the first time I saw him walk into that gym, he looked defeated. He looked hopeless and he looked like everything was lost and we were the steady, the steady captain of the ship of the the chaos of the storm to be able to take him from being injured to getting him to that meet where he wants to hit, where he wants to hit that number in April.

It was three months where we first started with desensitizing his lower back. Again, paralleling is a high force production movement. A lot of big muscles front to back are going to squeeze you. So you have to work on opening that space up, getting him to expand. Also, when you're very stiff and rigid, you're going to lock up and move like a unit. I always say imagine a refrigerator rolling down a hill. It doesn't rotate, it doesn't roll, it doesn't move. So working on getting him those relative motions of the hips back so that he doesn't have to rely on his lower back ground based exercises first getting him deep breathing, getting him out of that fight or flight drive, then working on regaining that relative motion. Then working on gentle body weight hip hinges with a staggered stance to get that rotation in the hips and the pelvis. Then reintroducing some goblet squats where he's breathing and bracing throughout. Breathing and bracing throughout all of it. Breathing first, sitting at the bottom breathe brace. Then getting him back to hinging with dumbbells, then getting him back to deadlifts. And throughout all of that time, he would trust in US completely and wherever grateful for that. He went from not being able to sleep, walk, stand without pain to deadlifting all time PR at 520lbs in April in a span of three months. He's able to do that. And we credit that to our education and also our strength and conditioning process.

SG: Oh that's fantastic. And I bet you saw that smile back as well, right?

PC: The joy on his face after deadlifting on that meet day was priceless.

SG: Yeah. That's what makes you. Yeah, that's that's why you're in it, right. It's pretty special.

So at this point, how many hours a week do you think, you folks? Obviously there's some variability per week, but on average, how much of A commitment was this while you're still in PTPT school?

FC: It was a decent amount of time. It's it's hard to put a specific number on it. I won't tell your professors or maybe they won't listen to this. So I'm not, you know, you could be over there. If it's not in person sessions, let's just say we're putting in 20 hours a week for in person sessions. It's also the meetings, the filming, the editing, the putting the LLC together, putting the trademark together. What are next steps if we want to go to a PLLC? Like there's, there's so much behind the scenes that truly, if it's like you're always working, but you're not because you have such a passion for it.

And my mother tells me this all the time. If you love what you do, you don't work a day in your life. So I could say that truthfully that it, it, it's not work. It's it's it's passion. It's it's I get to rather than I have to. 

SG: That’s a great mindset. I mean, not too many people, I think achieve that dream, right? But but when you do and you see someone, I can see your smile as well, which is pretty great.

Now look, it can't be all, you know, I don't know, lollipops and whatever. I'm sure there are times you guys maybe look, it's stressful. You're in a PT program, you're, you have business responsibilities, you have other responsibilities outside of each other, I'm quite sure. And you know, you're trying to do the best job for each of you. But at times I bet there was some conflict. Give me an example of that. How do you guys resolve that between the two of you?

FC: I would say, I would say it's a togetherness. So knowing that you have someone in your corner to get you through any dark times was huge for us. One of the biggest. It wasn't an internal conflict, but it was more of an external conflict where we had our home base set up in a in another facility and a situation of like businesses and business happened and one thing led to another and we had to move spaces. So in that time it was very dark. It was very tough. We had to call every gym in the Westchester area and kind of figure out who was willing to take us. And it was actually people that had an understanding of our reputation that did accept us. And just being there for one another definitely got us through those moments.
Leaning on our mentors, them letting us know that this too shall pass and trusting that our mission and our passion will get us where we want to be rather than kind of soaking in all the negativity. 

SG: Just go right through the gloves and get in the ring.

FC: I was going to say in terms of internal conflict, listen, we're, we have open communication where, where we've really built a brotherhood where we know that if we say something to one another, there's a reason behind it. So we listen. And if there are mistakes that are made, we hold each other accountable. And if there's something that has to be dealt with in the ring, we, we deal with it in the ring. You know, we put some boxing gloves on and we said a little like that. 

PC: There's a picture of Cesco giving me a great 5 nip to my jaw as his glove goes right through. It was a high velocity, low amplitude thrust if I've ever seen one. Wild.

SG: Smile face when he delivered that as well. 

PC: Oh, 100%.

SG: That's funny. No, it's I, I like what you said about the fact that, you know, it's almost like you guys have, you know, you know, your, your hearts are both in the right place. You know, you come from the same common ground. And so there's a, there's credibility and respect that allows you to receive feedback, you know, sometimes which, you know, look, feedback is tough to take sometimes, even if it's delivered constructively. But I think the relationship is mature enough that, you know, you guys know where it's coming from and you can have a discussion like adults and, and it's clearly worked out for you guys.

What, what's one thing you wish you kind of knew about business before you, you know, before you got into this that you kind of maybe learned the hard way or just something you didn't even anticipate, but you could be something you had to deal with. 

PC: I wish we knew that, like you mentioned before, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. Back in 2023, everything was going right. Everything was clicking, things were going right. We had a bunch of clients we had, we were lifting heavy weights. We were doing everything we can not, nothing can go wrong. And then we had that incident in 2024 where we lost our home base like vagabonds just find trying to find a new home where I wish we knew that in those happy times, stay, enjoy them, but stay in that that middle zone where you can still appreciate that happy times, but know that you can always fluctuate like a pendulum back and forth at any time. And again, when we were in that darkest point, we both looked at each other and said this was going, if we persevere through this, this is going to be an amazing story to tell. Just stay the course 'cause it's going to swing back at some point.

Cesco mentioned this too shall pass is a good quote that both of us really resonate with. But I wish we knew that when you're in that happy time, it can always swing back whenever you can, just mentally if you're prepared for it, but still stay present whatever you have to do. Because that kind of hit us very hard and took us some time to get our feedback under us. As opposed to if we knew that and understood that in the beginning, it would have been a smoother transition to get us back to midline or back to what we call neutral.

SG: OK, so the $1,000,000 question now is that you're coming towards the end of your educational journey. You've had this kind of side hustle as you've gone through this turn. Well, it's turned into more than just a side hustle in my mind, but it's certainly you've been balancing a number of different things on your plate. Graduation comes, do we seek traditional employment, continue to do the training on the side. There's a whole host of options in between one way or the other. 
So what's, what's the plan? Have you guys had in depth conversations about what the future looks like now that you're going to be transitioning to, to a licensed physical therapist?

PC: We have had in depth conversations about it. And the way it's planning playing out is I graduate in May and Cesco graduates in December 2025, give or take another month or so to get license for both of us. So I will be licensed first, that way I can then apply for a PLLC as opposed to the LLC.

In the meantime, Cesco will have his clinical. So I'll be taking over some if not most of the training clients. We are in talks with two gyms in the Westchester area to become the physical therapy wing of both of those gyms. They're looking for people to be the PTs in those spots. So that would be a great opportunity for us to continue this journey of the entrepreneurial route. The good thing about that is one of the gems is more bodybuilding, A powerlifting focus, two of our specific niches and then the other one we could see more general population athletes and also cross fitters. So that's very much in the niche of performance focused physical therapy.

And in terms of the model that we might want to practice would be an out of network semi-private cash based model where we can take some insurances, take cash based also growing the training side while we're getting that smooth transition the next 6 to 12 months to be full-fledged physical therapy. 

But the biggest thing is performance focused physical therapy. So that would be if someone has to improve their tug time, if someone has to improve getting stronger in a squad, getting faster in a sprint, performance is so arbitrary. And you can tie that into so many other things where we want can be a one stop shop to help as many people as possible and also doing some community service piece on the side. 
Because if we are cash based, one of our core values, both of us would be that selfless service to give back to the community where you can help those that can't necessarily afford your prices, but you can still help and make an impact on people the way we want to.

SG: So Peter, just so I'm clear. So, so you're thinking then that you would not initially seek employment through an existing practice, but would kind of like to put your own shingle out there in these locations, etcetera and then really get things as the as the founder in essence of this this new entity?

PC: Yeah.

FC: I would also like to touch on that too, because one of our main pillars is quality care. So to provide quality care as a entry level physical therapist, some people might question that. So getting mentorship isn't something that we've kind of thrown away because it's two of us that can manage PFP. If we're splitting time, somebody's working in a clinic part time while the other is taking care of PFP. And like the days that one isn't working, the other is doing this and kind of balancing responsibility so we can still get that mentorship. And I know for the OCS, we need to have hours under somebody with an OCS. So it's something that we're still in the talks about and, and, and figuring out. But once we've really weigh out the pros and cons and, and the logistics of things, then we can make some more decisions. But again, we're young, we're 24 and 25.

So if there is a time to take the risk, I would say that time is now. But we'd also don't want to lose the opportunity to gain mentorship from some of the best in the field already. 

SG: I think that's very mature, Francesco and I and I can, you know, look, there's also going to be some economic reality pieces here, right? Meaning like, OK, how quickly does the business take form? You know, maybe one or both of you have part time jobs and existing clinics. And look, your level of maturity and the way that you've approached everything you've done so far tells me that, you know, you guys aren't going to be riding shotgun, you know, through this practice without guidance, without continuing education, without pulling in other people that have skills you may not possess. So the whole mentoring thing I think can still be built into something that you can still have some autonomy over. And again with maturity that you've demonstrated that that's not a concern of mine.

That is, that is a concern of mine in general. I think in some cases, right, when someone gets out of school, I'm immediately going to open a cash-based practice and they've literally never practice other than their 36 weeks or 40 weeks of clinical education experiences. But you guys are very different than that. And I think also your business model has evolved while you've been in physical therapy school to some extent, right? You're at a very different place business wise or entrepreneurial wise than someone who gets out of school and just decides, oh, I think I want to open my own practice, right? I mean, they're complete. They're light years away from each other. So I give you guys credit for doing so much of that foundational work early on.

What do you guys think about? And again, two different, two different academic programs here too so maybe the program has approached it differently, but did you have anything within your academic program that kind of helped you develop the core set of business skills or even discussed entrepreneurial activities? 
And then beyond that, what do you feel that the PT academic institutions role should be in, in terms of that content matter?

FC: Yeah, I, I would say that I, I think PT and PTA academic programs should incorporate under entrepreneurship education more intentionally, especially giving the increasing trend of therapists moving into cash based and out of network practices and business ownership. So even if it's some of the professors who started their own business offering to have mentorship meetings with anyone interested in potentially going the entrepreneurial path, I was lucky enough and also Pete as well, Dr., Mr. Hyland, he had a very successful business and he teaches some of the business entrepreneurial classes at Mercy as well as New York Medical College. So we were lucky enough to have that mentorship. And you know, while Clinical Excellence is the foundation and business acumen is essential for those who want to create like sustainable career paths outside of traditional employment and the PT and PTA fields are rich with endless opportunities to do that. So I think getting some of that education in DPT curriculum would be huge to again, try to transform society, right? So getting out of that six patients an hour type thing and giving young therapists the tools to do their own thing and provide quality care and really change what physical therapy needs.

SG: Yeah, I, I am 100% on that train. And I look, I, I worked for 14 years as a faculty member and, you know, you just, you, you're looking at the accreditation criteria and you're trying to determine, you know, what's nice to have versus must that, you know, required. And look, there's not free space. There just isn't. But I think there are ways of kind of reimagining things as healthcare's path has changed, right?

I mean, you know, five years ago, the physical therapy landscape was very different. I mean, chiropractors have 10 times the amount of business built into their programs as physical therapists because their model was always a little bit different. Well, our model is changed and there we are many times the direct portal for patients to come to us. So I think you're, you're right. I and I think the APTA has done a pretty good job of that. I think in terms of their offerings, if you look at what's offered at CSM now, some of the specialty groups, the mentorship process they have in place. So I think they've tried to embrace some of that and, and I think the academic institutions will do the same. 

You're right though, the, the primary, you know, their, their primary job is not to, you know, produce entrepreneurs, it's just to produce fantastic clinicians that can move the profession forward. So I, I certainly understand the rub as far as that goes. But yeah, I agree with you. That's great. I'm glad you did have some experience and interesting that the program shared the same resource in in terms of that. 
All right, so in closing, folks, let me give you each a shot to just, you know, what words of advice do you have for, you know, people listening to this podcast? And again, I'm assuming people listening to this podcast have some interest in maybe one day doing something on their own. People may be dabbling, but I think most part, you know, people just kind of getting on board with this. We're hoping that some practicing physical therapists listen to this as well as students. But what advice do you have for someone who hasn't gone down the path that you folks have?

PC: I would say your movement assessment skills that you have, things that you learn, your personality, your interpersonal skills can take you further than you think. What we learned in physical therapy school and as physical therapist, like Jessica said, we're immense problem solvers and we're decision makers with our clinical decision-making expertise.

But also being able to navigate certain things in that regard as well. You can use that in so many different avenues. And the other thing is if you find a specific niche that you're passionate about that you like to work towards, you can endure anyhow, because that is your why. So for example, like Cesco talked about, we're, we're managing a PT curriculum but also a strength and conditioning business. But it's because it's our why you're going to want to make as much effort into it as possible because you created it. 

So if you take the leap and you do it, you're going to be all in, you're going to invest in it, You're going to put in the time, you're going to put in the work, and it's going to be the most rewarding work that you're going to do because you created it from scratch. People always want to give their best effort to things that they made. It's like when you make a home cooked pasta meal, you love it because you made it from scratch as opposed to from the box. It's because you put in that time, you put in that effort. You see the fruits of your labor. And that's just the the positive cycle that allows you to gain momentum and do things that you didn't think were possible.

SG: Great. The ownership piece is is is huge. I agree.

FC: Yeah.
 
SG: Francesco what about you?

FC: I'm right there with Pete. I, the only thing I would add is or on a similar note is find your niche, find your passion. You're in physical therapy for a reason. But self-reflect, dive a little bit deeper. What's, what's the specific population you want to work with? If that's rock climbers, pelvic floor, trans care health, like whatever that passion may be, that is going to fuel the fire and drive you that much more to put your influence into physical therapy.

So we were lucky enough to found our find our passion with strength conditioning at a young age and kind of create this. But it's never too late. There's people in my program that have had. Four different jobs and now they're just deciding to go PT. But look for that passion. When you find that passion, do everything in your power to become the expert clinician in that field. And I think when you find that the rest is going to take care of itself.

SG: Great advice from both of you. And you guys are wise far beyond your years. I can, I can tell you that right now. Now look, I both want to remind you folks that there is something called the licensing exam that I know you're very busy, but I want to make sure you adequately prepare for as well. So don't forget about that. And I will, I will be sending you some resources in order to assist you with that process. 
But folks, thanks for carving out the time to do this. I I think this is a it's a great message. It's a you've done a wonderful job. I love the collaboration. I love the partnership part of this as well. And I really admire how much respect you have for each other. So thanks for joining us today.

FC: Thank you, Scott. Thank you for having us.

SG: You're welcome.

PC: I got your book back there. Don't worry, I'm studying.

SG: Well, we have other resources. I'll get you something else you don't have, I assure you. All right, fellas, thanks for the time. And to all our listeners out there, thanks for listening. We'll be back next month with another Spotlight podcast. Thank you.

Voiceover: And there you have it. Another dose of PT-preneurial inspiration to fuel your journey. Check out more inspiring stories from PTs and PTAs out there making waves by listening and subscribing to our podcasts on your favorite streaming platforms. And don't forget to rate and review this podcast. Thanks for listening.