Episode 4: Greg Knapton – Master Clinician

Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube - https://youtu.be/Hc6lmGfMrKo 

After graduating from the PT program at the University of Vermont, Greg Knapton spent his early PT years in a variety of healthcare settings developing his considerable clinical skills. He eventually opened his own PT practice, Riverview Physical Therapy, which grew into five clinics. Two decades later, Greg sold his practice and is now focused on a new venture in direct pay, one-on-one physical wellness. Join us as we explore Greg’s career evolution and his exciting plans for the future.

Voiceover: So you're a PT or PTA grad who's feeling the spark of something more. Maybe you dream of building your own business, one that's constructed around your vision, one that empowers you to make a real difference on your terms. This feeling, it's the entrepreneurial itch. And you're not alone. Countless PTs and PTAs are taking the leap to entrepreneurship, crafting careers that are as unique as they are. 

Welcome to the Innovate and Rehabilitate the Entrepreneurial PT podcast. In each episode, we'll dive deep into the world of PT-preneurship with Inspiring physical therapists and physical therapist assistants just like you, who are crushing it on their terms. We'll uncover their secrets, their struggles, and the incredible impact they're making. From building your PT boss dreams to navigating the business side of things, will equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to turn your vision into reality.

So, whether you're just curious about starting your own business, or you're already out there making your dreams a reality, this podcast is for you. Get ready to unleash your inner entrepreneur. Let's do this!

Scott Giles (SG): My name is Scott Giles and I'm the founder of Scorebuilders and your host for today's podcast. I want to extend a special welcome to today's guest, Greg Knapton. Greg has a fascinating career arc that includes becoming a master clinician and opening and eventually selling a network of five physical therapy practices. 

Greg is already underway on his next entrepreneurial pursuit, which I refer to as Greg 3.0. This initiative is focusing on focusing on one-on-one physical Wellness and rehabilitation. Greg's wife is also in the health and Wellness industry, and they are busy parents to three boys. Greg's story offers a compelling case of how commitment to excellence, dedication, risk taking, and innovation can lead to a fulfilling and rewarding PT career. Greg, welcome to the podcast.

Greg Knapton (GK): Thank you Scott for having me.

SG: Greg, it's funny because I mean, I've literally known you for over 40 years, which is, which is kind of crazy and I guess kind of dates us both, although clearly I'm an older, but it, but it's been interesting because we've kind of known each other peripherally, initially through a family friend. And that's, that's how we came in contact when we were super young. But then you know, through athletics, your dad being a very successful basketball coach, then to you going to, you went down South to practice clinically after you became a physical therapist. And then we're going to relocate back to this area. And I remember you contacted me, and we talked a little bit. And then when you eventually opened your clinic, you would take students from the University of New England where I was the DCE. And so, I started to know your clinical practice through that. And then you hired a Scorebuilders original clinical instructor of ours or trainer of ours, Matthew Douglas, who eventually ended up running and still runs one of your clinics today. So I feel like through these periods of time over these 40 years, when we checked in, I remember I was always kind of excited to be like, OK, Greg, what's going on? Well, what, what's your latest thing? And it seems like every time there was an update when we would, when we would run into each other. And, and again, recently we connected and, and that's where I learned about, you know, that you had sold your practice and, and you were moving on to this next phase, which truly is well underway. And I'm really excited about this opportunity because it's a little bit out-of-the-box. So when I thought about doing this podcast, I absolutely thought you'd be a fantastic guest to have because, you know, because of that career arc that we described, I think it'd be very interesting to our listeners. So again, thanks for thanks for joining me. 

So let's let's jump right in. So way back in the beginning where you were just a youngster and we're being raised by a wonderful family in Westbrook, ME. How did physical therapy even get on your radar?

GK: Well, to be honest with you, I kind of fell into it. I guess you could say I was fortunate enough to go to the University of Vermont and I was actually a pre-Med student. Unfortunately, as I got into school, I realized that I didn't want to do another 14 years of this to become an orthopedist. And, and I knew I grew up athletically and I knew I wanted to do something. And so I said I didn't know a lot about physical therapy, but I, as I looked into it, I said, hey, I think this is something I wanted to do as a first year student at the University of Vermont pre-Med or PT. At the time it was the program was a Bachelor of Science, so it was a four-year PT degree. We had the same, you know, chemistry, bio, everything. So it was about November of my first year of school that I realized that I didn't want to continue for a long period of time. I like school get, but not that much. And I was, I transferred into the program and, and actually got into the program my sophomore year. And that's how I was introduced.

I, I looked around, I went to a local practitioner in my town over Christmas break and, and actually made a decision that if I didn't transfer in at the University of Vermont, I was going to transfer another school to go to do physical therapy with the initial thoughts that I thought, but I wasn't even kind of sure how much PT had to offer outside of orthopedics, which was, which was also interesting as I went through the process.

SG: OK, now that is interesting. So all right, so now let's fast forward. You're coming out of school, you're ready to go into the real world. Did you have a, did you have a sense? I mean, did you, are you one of these? I mean, you're pretty focused guy and very cerebral. And so I mean, did you already have this kind of master plan kind of executed that one day you would own your own clinic or where did you even start? How did your career progress?

GK: I was just turned 22 when I got out of school, so we're pretty young and I was more interested in what part of the country I was going to live in than what I was doing for work, to be quite honest with you. But I but I did know that I wasn't sure what part of PT that I wanted to do. And so, I was set on finding a hospital or a company that provided rotations. And I thought that was very important. There is some knock sometimes on being an acute care physical therapist. But to be honest with you, that's where everything starts, right? You learn medicine, you're around surrounded by a bunch of people. So I was fortunate enough that I knew I wanted to live in the Southwest at the time.

I know the states of Scott, but there was no Internet. I took the back of the PT bulletin and said, look, this is Arizona. Let me call this hospital. Let's call this hospital, see if they'll fly me out. And at the time, the environment was similar to today's environment where it was pretty easy to get a job. And then I, I picked a hospital that my first part of my first rotation was wound care. And my first continued education course I took was wound care. And then I did on in hospital orthopedics and neuro and did some skilled nursing. And, and that's kind of how I learned a lot of parts. But it was very important to me to, to divulge into learning from every aspect, the medicine aspect. What's this dangling someone in the ICU and how that kind of forms your how the body functions and for me, that was important. And then as I worked through, I actually went on to travel therapy for a few years and that's what I kind of knew. I think I want to do this orthopedic outpatient thing. And I was just north of Cincinnati, OH, and I was working in a sports medicine clinic that just the hospital just bought and it was it was ACL post OPS. It was young people, it was older people with back pain. It was and it was it was pretty high paced. I'm a fairly high paced guy and I just loved it. And I said, this is this is what I want to do.

And from there I went on to do a fellowship in sports medicine that actually was a full time 4 month program to get my athletic training certification through, through, through fellowship. And that was part of actually Health South and University of North Carolina. And then I knew, OK, my career is going to be in outpatient orthopedics.

SG: Well, you made a wise choice, not just in orthopedics. Well, you know, with your knowledge base, but also, you know, transitioning to physical therapy, I think early in the process, we ended up obviously looking back being a great move for you. 

So look, Greg, I'm, you know, I worked in Southern Maine as well as at the university, you know, in managing students, internships and all that stuff. And so you know, the clinics you want to go to and the clinics you don't want to go to and you know, the providers who just are exceptional. And I'm not trying to like inflate your head because you're pretty confident guy already. But I mean, you're a stud. I mean, you are, you are a fantastic clinician. I want to know how were you? I mean, is this stuff just come easy to you? I mean, we were talking about, you know, something the other day body related and you lost me like after the first, you know, 1st 10 seconds of talking. So and and it's real, like it's real. And your reputation is outstanding.

So I want to hear about I want to hear about how you became to be such a master clinician, what kind of mentorship you received and maybe what recommendations you have, you know, for people trying to differentiate themselves from other PTS.

GK: I think the biggest thing to step back a little bit as far as academia, I probably finished in the middle of my class out of 35 people, but I did, I did do very well in my clinic clinicals and, and I did exceeded in the clinicals. And one of the things that I found is in this, I talked to my young therapist a lot is that when you're working in customer service, this is, this is a, this is no different than any other. You're dealing with people and their feelings and what they have and to be open to understanding that you as the provider needs to adapt to the person. That person shouldn't have to adapt to you. And so when I talk about that, what does that have to do with physical therapy? The really good clinicians and people that not that I've learned from and and been open to are athletic trainers, massage therapists, DOs, doctors. You learn the human body as a system and you only get a really fraction of that in PT school. And you have to be willing to be open to say, yeah, I don't know that that I'm not sure that's right. How am I going to figure it out? I'm a pretty stubborn guy as in to try to figure that out. So in, in learning it and continuing learning process, because to be honest with you, I've been doing this for 32 years now and I only feel like I know a fraction of how the body functions and, and, and I need to continue to learn that and adapt. 

And so, for me, the development was not easy. I had, there are three specific points in my early on in my career where I thought I was a stud until I sat down with my until I sat down with my supervisor and said, no, you're really not doing this this great. You really need to improve on this. And you're like, OK, I'm OK with constructive criticism. I actually want to seek that out because if I really want to be better at this. And the hard part I always find is that you're going to get in trouble if you think you know everything because the body is too complicated. But being aware of the fact it's a continuing learning process. So for me over the years, it was learning from colleagues, it was learning having the opportunity. You and I worked both at Orthopaedic Associates to know you can walk next door to some of the best physicians in in New England. 

And in the kind of the aha moment that come came to me as far as what we provide as physical therapists, which is different than doctors, is physician told me once Dr. Lincoln Avery, he said look, a good PT can make a bad surgery good. A bad PT can make a good surgery bad. And it's teamwork. And the other piece that I was fortunate enough is in my fellowship I worked with had a chance to observe Kevin Wilk in Birmingham, AL and how their physicians met with their PT on their post op visits. And as physical therapist, we provide it. We have so much more time than positions with our clients. Even if you're in a busy clinic, even if you're in a super fast-paced clinic, you still have more face to face time than these physicians unfortunately don't have because of the system.

So as I've grown through my practice, the big thing for me, Scott, was just to continue to learn and be open to something that might seem not quite you've learned, but there's something to it and really judging it for yourself versus having other people tell you what it's supposed to be.

SG: That's great. The totally and I love the mentorship piece. And you're right. If someone's not providing you feedback, because you know, even if you're the next cuff coming of Berta Bowbath or Florence Kendall, I mean, this doesn't come easy. And there's no way you come out as a relatively not novice PT or at any point in your career really, and can't improve on something. And if someone's not feeding you that information, it's too hard to generate, you know, a real accurate assessment of yourself with the limited knowledge that we all possess individually. But surround yourself by great people and great things happen.

So Greg, let's get into when you open the clinic, I guess I assume you probably have had a large trust fund or that you're related to the Vanderbilt's or Carnegie's or is that accurate? Am I correct?

GK: I grew up in a Milltown, Let's just leave it at that with two parents, 2 wonderful parents that were teachers. So we're all good.

SG: OK, So how did this, how did this happen then? I mean that because a lot of people with any entrepreneurial activity, one of the big barriers is, look, I have a ton of debt. I have no capital. This is not something I can do. All kinds of people would like to own their own clinic or run their own business. But so, so tell me about that. How did you, how did you overcome that obstacle?

GK: In my personal life as well, I'm a pretty fiscally conservative guy. Some people might call me cheap. I say I'm frugal, I whatever. So, so as I was looking at the process, I think the realization came back as I, when I started my process, it really was how relationships affect the, the world. And I'll give you an example when I was working in Portland, I was very fortunate had got to work with these great doctors and you build relationships and you build trust and you they start trusting in you and helping them. And it's a teamwork effort. And I left that office and and 2001 May of 2001 to run another health office in Brunswick, which is for it's about 45 minutes away from Portland. And to give quote was kind of an eye-opening moment is that the doctors from the Portland office were one of the regional orthopedic doctors, really good doc physicians there. And when I became the director of this office, so you saw the numbers and all that stuff and what it looked like is in the same 6 month period. And this had nothing to do the fact that I treated these clients. But the number of referrals from the Portland office to the Brunswick office, PT office doubled in a six-month period. And it went from 45 the year before to 90 in six months. I didn't see those people. But what all of a sudden this physician's like, oh, you live halfway between, oh, why don't you try Brunswick? You know, so and so's up there and you realize that, OK, this is, this is about relationships and providing a quality service and someone entrusting you. 

And so in this space between Brunswick in Portland, there was kind of a gap at the time in the, in the early 2000s of not too many PT clinics. And so I'm like, you know what, There's nothing halfway between in a town called Yarmouth. There wasn't at the time at least. And it's like, I think I want to see if I can open my own practice again, getting back to, I'm not, I'm not a high-risk taker. I'm pretty conservative. So I went to a friend of mine who had his own clinic, sold it and then went back to, in partnership with the company called US Physical Therapy. And that was a that was a fit for me. It's not a fit for everybody. There are going to be people that are much more risk averse and just say, hey, I'm going to do this and not worry about it. I knew that there was too much about the business end insurance compliance that I didn't know and I wasn't willing at the time when I was doing this, my wife was pregnant with her third child. Good timing, huh? And, and I said, I said I need to have a little bit more support. And so my friend Jason was involved with, with US physical therapy at the time, which is a publicly traded company. And I had 22 excellent years with them and, and it was the best decision for me that I made, I made. And, and so how it works is at the time is they, you're in a limited partnership with them and they provide you with the support. And so because the area we went in and that was, I opened up and saw my first client in March of 2002. And you have it was it's truly a partnership where I'm the local provider. My company at the time was named Yarmouth Physical Therapy because we're in Yarmouth. And then when I opened more clinics, we changed it to Riverview and it worked. So the point that I had support through them and we had like mindedness, volume, volume. And it's and that's the hard part. You have to find that.

Is it ideal if you could treat everybody for one-on-one for an hour? Yeah, it's ideal, unfortunately, and not a lot of physical therapy schools have the time because they're doing that educate you on the economics of healthcare. You have some and some. And I'm not bashing on schools because there's a lot you have to get in, but it's one of those that you know us as a profession or is facing reimbursement reductions and quite a long time. A friend of mine used the analogy once that if you, if your washing machine dies and you have a service man come in and their fee is $75.00 to walk in the door and I turn around, I'll give you $25.50, but that's all I'm giving you. That's kind of sometimes the relationship we have with insurance companies. Where do I take this? Do I take this provider or not? So it was very good. And that's how I, I chose to do that.

And you know, I would say we had a modest, although you know, my through the 22 years we roughly averaged between 10 and 12 visits a day per clinician really 10 to 11, which is manageable. And it's manageable if, if you have a skill set that you can draw from, it's hard in depending on, in this setting, depending on your skill set. And as new grads, what we like to do is we would usually have new grads start with one client, client an hour and work their way in and get comfortable and, and, and move from there. So that's kind of how I got chose the direction of of going to be in a partnership situation because it was much, it was for me at the time, it was much more risk protected, right?

SG: No, but it's great that I mean, you look, that's a long relationship, you know, 20 plus years with this company and you know, and you're looking back at it and it was wonderful. You felt supported. You were able to do the things that that you were best at and that's treat patients and train your staff to have the same level of excellence that you have. And then US physical therapy did much of the administrative work, much of the things that, you know, there's so many compliance and regulation things. It's you know, it, I can't imagine. I mean, that would be the major barrier to me to even consider. You know, the possibility of opening a clinical practice. 

So I guess that I'm just kind of picturing how this goes at the dinner table at your household. Oh, honey, yeah. It's a, it’s crazy. I know. You know, we're both working so much and I know you wiped us a lot of work with LL Bean fitness wise and, you know, all guys our own business. And I mean, you look, you're a busy guy and the kids are probably climbing all over you. You have three kids at that point. You're like, you know, this is good. But you know, I think I'd like to open another clinic. Like I could just picture at my dinner table like I'm, I literally might have to duck. I mean, Greg, I'll, I mean, I'm an idea guy and I'll sometimes at dinner be like, you know what? Hey, Traci, I have an idea. I want to run by you. And she'll just look at me like right away, like seriously like, and sometimes it's like, not tonight. And my wife and she is very supportive. But how did you pull, how did you pull this off? I mean, how did you, it has to be like going from no children to one children to one child to 2 to 3 to 4. I mean, you have 5 clinics. Greg, how are you? How are you managing this? How, how, how does this work?

GK: It's, I couldn't have done it without awesome staff. And I will put that out there that I had a very excellent relationship and the leadership at, at US physical therapy was, was awesome. It was truly the vice president of OPS Darrell Gottwald, he and I are good friends and direct report. But you know, if even through the pandemic and some personal things that happened to my staff over the years, the CEO Chris Redding, who's been there for 20 years, would call me on the cell phone and it's and I couldn't have done without the support and I definitely couldn't have done without fantastic staff that I had locally. You, you were friends because you worked with Matt Douglas. As we talked about, I've known Matt Douglas since 3rd grade, and I was fortunate enough to be able to play basketball with him through all the way through high school. And, and I talked Matt in after the first year to come work with me. And, you know, I said, yeah, it's really, you know, it's slower pace and it's, it's, it's great. And we had, you know, you know, and I always wanted to work with him. And a funny story on this. And this gets back to relationships. His clinic was probably 30 minutes from the Yarmouth clinic where he's currently working with. And it was, you know, I had, I had a, a younger PT that moved on after the first year and I really tried to win after Matt because he's a great guy, great clinician and he was a leader. And, and to, to the point was, even though his clinic was 30 plus minutes, he brought 12 patients with him the first week that travelled and followed him over.

So that tells you the type of guy and clinician. And then he's like, you lied to me because we're really busy and we had scaled pretty quickly. And, and, and I would, I was my first mindset. I was just going to do 1 clinic, but because I had the support of my silent partner and because I had on board, I've got someone that can run an office and allow him, you know, to take that over. I was about 25 minutes from my home at that time and I was driving down the road and I saw a four lease sign within a mile of my house. I said I want to put a clinic in my own town. And so I got the support of USPH. And then to be honest with you, the step after that one was a little bit of a push from US physical therapy to open my, my third one. But the person that I hired to replace me that moved to Yarmouth wanted to open a clinic and he opened one up in Bath. And then in another situation four years later or so, the first one was 2000 and two, 2000 and three, 2004, then 2007. And because of our, our reputation we had for quality and because of relationships and because of my awesome staff and awesome clinicians, we opened another office for another, a local PT that was a it came to work for me.

And then actually subsequently he's actually opened his own practice and he was a Scorebuilders teacher, Mike Smith. And, and so, so the relationship comes through of if I didn't have staff in place, there were the quality that we they were and just hard workers and awesome front office staff because of getting back to when you're running, it's the first person someone calls when they go to a clinic is different office. And it's how you interact and how you treat people personally. That's what they're going to remember. And if you combine the fact that if you're a good person and a good people person, and then you add on top that you're a good clinician, the great ones can do both, right. I always say this, the great ones are great interpersonal skills and high level of knowledge to be able to adapt. So as you're starting into your career, it's not you don't have to know anything but how to treat someone nice. And you can already you already have an edge up in my opinion. Does that make sense?

SG: Yeah. That's the absolute core foundational piece. And Greg, you want to know how small a world this is? And by the way, folks, this is not because we both are in Maine, OK? This is not a Maine thing. This is an everywhere physical therapy thing. Matt Douglas, who we're talking about who's runs your clinic, who is a Scorebuilders instructor.

GK: It's and actually to be honest with you, Scott, it's it's when I stepped away. Actually it's Matt's now the partner.

SG: Which I love, and another of your long term employees is also the partner who's been with you nearly 20 years. Yeah, that's incredible. I love that part of it. But what I was going to say is that Matt Douglas went to Springfield College as I did. And Matt is, you know, considerably younger than I am, but my wife was Matt's clinical instructor on his neuro rotation at, at New England Rehab Hospital. So come on. I mean, every person I have on the show talks about relationships and people. And again, it's not a main thing. It's an everywhere thing. So you're right. The most critical thing is you're, you know, you're a good human being And, and you, you certainly are. And so are your employees.

OK, so look, this is all milk and honey. Like, why did you decide to sell? How did that be get on your radar? 

GK: The big thing is healthcare has changed and it's tough. It's we're in a we're in a marketplace where it's hard to find clinicians just because there's a shortage. You know, there's a been a, as you, we're all well to know there's been a lot of changes in this country and world in the last four years and it's changed perspectives a little bit. It wasn't, I mean, I worked a lot. You know, I pride myself as a clinician first and lucky enough to own a business with some awesome employees. I did see the highest volume and actually Matt and I saw the highest volume out of any of my clinicians. And some when someone once told me, you're the boss, why don't you sit in the office? I'm like, cuz I'm a clinician and this is what I do. And when you live in the same town that you grew up in and you raise your kids in, all of a sudden, you know, everybody's like, yeah, you can get me in. Let's go. And, and, and I have a hard time saying no because, you know, if you, if you, I know I, if I see you on a Thursday and what we did helps you, I want to somehow see you Friday. So you're feeling really good by Monday. You know, I don't want you to wait for four weeks to get in. And that's just the mentality of it wasn't driven monetarily. It wasn't driven because, oh, I'm going to make more money again, it was driven because I can help you. And if I do it in a fashion where, you know, go and we'd get you in quicker, we're going to be able to have better outcomes. 

It was, it was a lot of hours. I was finding myself, you know, I was finding myself starting to get a little short as a leader. And I'm not like that, you know, getting a little impatient. And so talk to talking to my wife and, and, and it's like, you know what, I, it may be time. And we talked, it was like it was March of 2023. And, and my wife and I said, you know, I think, I think, I think we can make this new venture work. My youngest just graduated from college. They're, they're my, my boys are now all basically in the transition of their own life. And it does, I've worked hard on my clinical skills and, and knowing what we do in, in relationships. And I had an opportunity to go into a new phase and the new phase is still doing some PT stuff, but it's more in a fitness wellness base and it's cash based and selfishly learning I just was certified through Titleist Performance Institute as a medical provider. I'm addicted to golf. And so I kind of did it to help clients, but also to help myself. 

SG: And then also let's stop right there for a minute because that is, that may be the most brilliant move of all the things you've ever done. Because now every time I can picture now, oh, what are you? What are you doing today? I'm headed out to the golf course. I'm doing some marketing. Yeah, I'm doing some swing analysis I'm working on and I don't even I don't know how many rounds you played this this month, but yeah, yeah, but, but no, but, but I but I love it makes sense, right? I mean, your understanding of the body, like you can be a golf pro, but you don't have the level of understand. And I and by the way, I think many golf pros have exceptional kinesthetic awareness and a great teachers and everything else. But, but the bottom line is you are an expert on human movement. And then in addition, now I believe you. Well, I know that you have an arrangement with another individual who has space and that you're now seeing people, including myself, which actually, Greg, might be the biggest project you've undertaken in, in your history of your career. I'll just tell you in advance. But and, and people are, are following you and it and it's cash based and, and it's, they value people value skills today.

And that's, that's why I feel at some level that this is a much better entrepreneurial environment than it was way back in the day when you and I graduated, because people, people want to see clinicians who can distinguish themselves, who can get them better. People have very large deductibles in some cases, or don't have much physical therapy and coverage to begin with. And they're looking for excellence. And, and you're still now able to do that on your schedule. You're, you said you're, you're addicted to golf and, and health and Wellness and, and you, you can kind of call the shots now, but maybe even make a bigger impact than you were making day in and day out in the trenches. So, and what has it been like letting go of the clinic and now being in this new phase of your life?

GK: You know, I mean, I'm doing mostly the fitness stuff, which is great and using your skills. And so, and I don't really, I'm not seeing, I'm selfishly not, but part of it is I have a transition that I have to go through right? And, and period. And, and I don't, I, I, one thing I said when I leave is that I, I don't want to have to deal with insurance companies anymore. But even I think, Scott, you can make, we, we affect people as PTs and you can make a big change. And it can come from the fact that you're a provider that you, you listen to the person, you're taking the time to learn as physical therapist, we're affecting pain lifestyle. You can make some significant changes.

I mean, one of the biggest changes for me and, and how I am, and we've talked a little bit about this with you and I interacting is my exposure to posture restoration 20 years ago. And, and that how that taught me how to look at the system in the body and in appreciating the mental health piece of it and all this stuff. And so why you why I bring with that is that even when I was busy, I feel I worked really, really hard on individualizing that program for that person, you know, and, and when you're in a clinician and you and I both worked in, I always harped to my clinicians and myself is that you're coming in here. I don't want to watch you do your home program. That's not what we're doing. You need to add value by educating the client, teaching them how to take care of themselves, teaching them what the diagnosis is and what are, you know, what is going on and how can I take care of this? And there's got to be buy in, right? Because even in a clinical setting now you're talking at $75 co-pays and you're looking at these costs. And so you have to add value. If someone's going to get rid of their, whether it's going through insurance or paying cash and needs to add value, you know you're not going to go back to that restaurant if the food's awful and the service server never paid attention to you. But you might go to your local restaurant or local bar and you might go once a week because you have great conversation with the bartender or the server and the food is awesome and they're on time and they appreciate you. And so that's adding value. 

Now we're talking about taking care of our body and how we can function. What it's allowed me right now, Scott, because I, I'm really not. I'm working a lot right now, which is OK with me. And sometimes I've gone through this transition, which is really funny. People said because I'm a fairly high energy person and I've always been go, go, go. And they said, you know, oh, you must be bored. How are you doing the transition? I hate to say it, but I feel like a different person. But what I did in January after I left is I'm also a runner. I ran in college. I have a fantastic group of people I run with. I have just turned 54 the other day. I'm the youngest person in my group. There are guys that run, they’re 75, 73 and we're doing a interval track workout yesterday morning. And I kind of help that, but I divulge myself into things that I did not take the time to because I was pulled away from this and that. I learned about aerobic capacity more. 

You know, I learned about what we're going to do and we learned about Zone 2 training. I've done talks on Zone 2 training. I've done what's really neat. I've done some talks with another friend of mine who we have mutual relationship with, Hayes Sweeney, who has three clinics and I did some lunch and learns and talked about posture restoration and and so just really taking the time to learn and working on my own sleep habits and health and fitness because you know, I'd like to live till I'm 100 that would be awesome as long as I'm healthy. And so and so, and then also learning about the golf process selfishly because I'm addicted to it, but also to be able to translate that.

So, but what's it allowed me to do is, is, is a friend, another friend of mine who I respect highly, Michael Mullen, who introduced me to posture restoration, is that there's less white noise now when I work with someone. And your skills are more fine-tuned, even more so, right. You don't have to worry about those emails, you don't have to worry about Medicare coming on your door to do an audit, you don't have to worry about so and so didn't show up to work today. You and I have interacted once and it's an hour of having a straight conversation and getting to know. So when you've built your skill set, now all of a sudden it's like, wow, my luggage is all organized. It's not just one mess, right. And so you can pull on that. Does that make sense?

SG: Yeah, it does. I like the luggage analogy too. And I could just picture myself many times when, when you know, you have things going on and you have employees and you have, you know, for us instructors all over the country and you have deadlines and you're trying to focus on a given task. But you're right, there's all these other things, you know, buzzing. So I kind of like the, you know, now you can go carry on, right? Instead of like checking four big bags. And that has to improve the thought process. And but Greg, here's the thing that I love. I love the fact that, look, you you put in and by the way, you say you're not working a lot. It's probably still working quite a bit for a normal human being. So that's number one. So I don't want people to think you're just having, you know, margaritas, you know, on the beach.

But, you know, you put in the time you became a master clinician, you started a venture that was, I mean, I don't know, but I'm sure very profitable. And you did well. And now you can eliminate some of that white noise. And you've built this reputation where people are still knocking on your door. You're going to be as busy as you want to be without all the white noise and can pursue whatever you're passionate about, which probably 2 years from now would be something different than you're passionate about today. So that's the, that's why I love your career arc, because you've earned it. You've put in the time and now you, you, you can pursue things that are truly meaningful to you, meaningful to you.

Greg, I ask, I ask all our guests this question because I love the podcast of the NPR podcast, How I Built this. And the question that's asked on that show is always when reflecting on your business activities, how much of your success do you attribute to luck and how much is attributed to intelligence and hard work?

GK: I, I think that's a, that's an interesting question. I think it's a combination luck in the sense of if you believe in fate, time. Why did I move back to Maine at the time? Why did I, why did Matt Douglas talk me into coming to work at OA, I think there's luck in the fact of luck and effect. If you made a decision that that there was a fork in the road and you took this road, you know, and I put you in a position, I think I think hard work is building the relationships and taking advantage of those relationships and not taking advantage of a person, but using those relationships to help you move forward. And I think and working on your in whatever you decide to pursue, get really good at it because just make people find an excuse not to have to go see you and they if they can't find one, then you're really good at what you're doing. Does that make sense?

And so, you know, so if you are really good at something and you've had good relationships, you're going to be successful in, in whatever you do, in my opinion. But you have to put in, you have to be willing to put in the time and, and I and I love the fact that people want to do entrepreneurial things and come out of school. Just have a, the self-awareness that you have to really surround yourself if you're going to go out on your own as your new, your, your, your knowledge base, You haven't had enough time and experience with clinicians and clinics and patients and to, to really have those things that turn the wrong way. And how do I deal with this activity? And I think it's great. And if someone decides to do that, that's great. But just have the self-awareness that you better make sure you surround yourself with people that you can refer to, to help when needed. And I think it was a combination of that luck and I think hard work and what you put into it.

SG: And maybe we've touched on this, but, but I mean, kind of in closing thoughts, I mean, what, you know, what, what do you see the profession of physical therapy looking like 10, 15, 20 years down the road? And what can, what can new graduates and, and, you know, individuals in school, like, what can they do as individuals to better kind of prepare themselves for this, you know, highly competitive, demanding market.

GK: And it's, you know, in, in, in the light right now. I mean, the, there are a lot, I think this new, this new graduates that are coming out are have a choice, right? And they have a choice because there's such a demand. We're, I mean, you're looking at the state of Maine, Scott, I believe we're the oldest, one of the oldest, if not the oldest state in the country as far as age wise, correct? I mean and that's a in people who are living longer. There are a lot more people that are worried about their health. I mean, there's going to be a turn around in that piece and they're healthy and they want to be healthy. And so physical therapy plays a huge part of that in all aspects, home health or in in rehab or even outpatient or whatever it may be. You definitely want to have be able to help people and, and you want to be able to help them and what they do. You just need to make sure that you're in an environment that allows you time to learn and grow into your craft. 

Kind of the outpatient orthopedic is a cool thing to do. You and I have both worked in a setting. It's not easy. There's a lot of things going on. There's time and not everybody can multitask. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying we should have to, but there is some financial pressures with reimbursement that need that and you've got to find out what let's give value to what you need to do. So I think I don't want to put a guess out there what's going to happen because I think our healthcare system in general is under distress. And it's not just physical therapy. There are lack of providers. There are family doctors that are leaving. We're in a situation. So I think as an entrepreneur or as a young PT, I think you're going to be able to pick and choose, but just make sure you're learning and growing in every step you take. 

And you can, you can learn just as much in a bad situation as you can in a good situation. Hopefully you're in a good situation because in a bad situation you're going to learn like, yeah, I don't want to do this again, you know, but, but, but building that piece of, of I find in relationships and in career success, it's a process and it takes time. And I think in our, in our day and age where everything is instant, it's hard to wrap your head around that. And I'm not saying that's right or wrong. It's just, it's hard to be patient in that because knowledge takes a long time.

SG: It is, yeah. And, and, and certainly I can relate to that because patience is not my best virtue, but I, but I, I do think I love what you're saying to, especially to new grads because, you know, they, they do have a choice because of this market, but they're also under just immense pressure from in large part due to the student loan debt and that, you know, and the cost of everything, right? Inflation, the cost of housing, the cost of just living is such that it's problematic. And so I guess I think what Greg and I are both kind of advocating, which I've heard from some other guests, is that you really want to bet, you really want to play the long game. You want to put yourself in the situation that is that mentoring situation where you can grow and you're going to be nurtured. And yes, money matters, but you know that the reality is you've been poor for a long time now if you're just coming out of school, right. OK? And, and you know what, What's a little more? I always like to say, what's a little more oodles and noodles? What's a little more Mac and cheese? You know what I mean?

Like, like play the long game and put yourself in a position that you can distinguish yourself and then things will happen on your career arc that are just as interesting as, you know, what, what Greg just described during this podcast. So yeah, I think patience and a well reasoned, I mean, you know, no job is forever. So if you get into a situation and you're not it sounded wonderful and it's not what you thought it would be, then, you know, maybe you want to look around. And conversely, you know, if you get into a situation and you're kind of have an urge to bust out, but you're learning, you know, incredible amounts of information, you're clinical skills are just exponentially improving, you maybe want to hang out in that area a little bit longer because it will pay off down the road.

So anyways, like so many things in life, I think playing the long game can really provide you with all kinds of opportunities because again, five years from now, there's going to be opportunities in physical therapy and for physical therapists that Greg and I can't even sit here and imagine. And that's super exciting to me. And again, that's one of the reasons we want to do that this podcast. 

Hey, Greg, I want to really thank you for taking the time. I really, I really hope that this isn't going to mean you can't play nine holes today.

GK: I get 18 and don't you worry, you're absolutely killing me.

SG: But no, seriously, I have a lot of respect for you and what you've built and you deserve all the good things that have happened to you. So continued success and thanks for joining us on today's podcast.

GK: Thank you, Scott.

SG: You're welcome. Thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in today. We'll be back in a couple weeks with another podcast. Have a great day.

Voiceover: And there you have it. Another dose of PT-preneurial inspiration to fuel your journey. Check out more inspiring stories from PTs and PTAs out there making waves by listening and subscribing to our podcasts on your favorite streaming platforms. And don't forget to rate and review this podcast. Thanks for listening.