Episode 3: Daniel Lee – Serial Entrepreneur
Scott Giles PT, DPT, MBA
Posted 10/10/24
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube - https://youtu.be/Br0am1DrZ8U
Daniel Lee is a true serial entrepreneur in the PT world. From academic chair and researcher to Scorebuilders’ instructor and home PT concierge service owner, his diverse roles showcase his commitment and willingness to take risks. In this episode, Daniel shares the invaluable lessons from his varied career, illustrating how dedication and excellence can lead to a fulfilling PT journey.
Transcript
Voiceover: So you're a PT or PTA grad who's feeling the spark of something more. Maybe you dream of building your own business, one that's constructed around your vision, one that empowers you to make a real difference on your terms. This feeling, it's the entrepreneurial itch. And you're not alone. Countless PTs and PTAs are taking the leap to entrepreneurship, crafting careers that are as unique as they are.
Welcome to the Innovate and Rehabilitate the Entrepreneurial PT podcast. In each episode, we'll dive deep into the world of PT-preneurship with Inspiring physical therapists and physical therapist assistants just like you, who are crushing it on their terms. We'll uncover their secrets, their struggles, and the incredible impact they're making. From building your PT boss dreams to navigating the business side of things, will equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to turn your vision into reality.
So, whether you're just curious about starting your own business, or you're already out there making your dreams a reality, this podcast is for you. Get ready to unleash your inner entrepreneur. Let's do this!
Scott Giles (SG): My name is Scott Giles. I'm the founder of Scorebuilders and the host for today's podcast. Our guest is Daniel Lee. Daniel is the physical therapy program chair at Stony Brook University in New York. Daniel Lee is often compared to Kevin Bacon because there are 6 degrees of separation between Daniel Lee and any physical therapist or physical therapist assistant in the United States. How do you achieve that kind of legendary status? By having a very rewarding and robust and diverse physical therapy career. And that's exactly what we're going to talk about today.
Daniel has been a program chair, a faculty member, an author, a researcher, a Scorebuilders instructor, an item writer, and happens to own a a PT home healthcare concierge service in Long Island as well. In addition, he's a Family Guy. He has a wonderful wife and two beautiful children. So, we're going to check in with Daniel and find out a little bit about his journey, what makes him tick, and get his views on entrepreneurial activities and physical therapy. Daniel, welcome to the podcast.
Daniel Lee (DL): Scott, thank you for having me. I am humbled. I don't even know who that guy is you just introduced, but he sounds awesome.
SG: Well, Dan, you know what happened when I was like thinking about what I was going to say about you, I started to like go through the list and I and I didn't even include everything. And I started to feel kind of inadequate about my whole career thinking like, Scott, why didn't you? Why didn't you do more? Like, what's your problem? Oh, I'm a slacker.
So, but anyways, that's what that's one of the reasons why I think you're going to be a super cool guest today because you know, I'm going to talk to some people who have, for instance, started a business and that business, you know, might have been a side hustle and then it turned into a full-time business. And then it was their passion project and their whole career is defined by this business. In your case, you're spread so broadly over so many different things that your career arc is very unique. And I think fascinating because I think the reality is more people are going to have side hustles and, and a variety of things throughout their career as opposed to only one thing. And so, the number of things that you've accomplished as one individual at a, you know, you're a young guy at this age already. I think it should be very interesting. It was interesting to me. And, and by extension, I assume that's going to be interesting to other people. So, kudos for that. So this is, you know, as soon, as, as soon as this idea hatched, I was immediately excited about getting you on as a very, very early guest. So thanks for doing that.
DL: Thank you for the opportunity to to be here. You know, I'm a big Scorebuilders fan. I knew Scorebuilders when I was a student, Scorebuilders helped me become the physical therapist. I eventually have become a lot of my career opportunities started with Scorebuilders in many ways. I passed my exam on the first try. I had confidence and I just kept it going. So thank you to you and to Scorebuilders.
SG: Well, I appreciate that. I think we're, you know, we're both passionate guys with the things that we do and and that's something I love about you. So but thank you for that. So all right, let's go back to the beginning. How did this whole journey start? How did PT even get on your radar, and how did you decide to, you know, pursue this track in college?
DL: Back in high school, I was doing what most high school guys do at the time and spend excessive amount of time lifting weights, but just doing, you know, biceps mostly, you know, that'll be important muscles.
SG: That's a Long Island thing, I think.
DL: Yeah, yeah. Well, you have to fill out your polo. And I, of course, injured myself. And I met with the athletic trainer, and he taught me some taping. And then I learned more about anatomy. And I knew at that time I was very fascinated by exercise science, human anatomy, and being able to sort of expand the human potential. And so that's what got me in the door. But it was in PT school after my second clinical experience, and I went to PT school at Stony Brook. But I'm the chair now that I learned that PT is a lot more than just sports and anatomy and exercise. It's really the ability to change someone's life in a way that no other field can do. And that's basically what got me into physical therapy and started everything for me.
SG: That's great. So did you, did you have a sense then when you, I mean, you came in, you know, kind of an athletic guy and you know, big biceps and that kind of stuff. And so you originally attracted to the ortho side, maybe sports medicine side. And then like, you know, it's a very common scenario, right? Someone comes in, believes they, you know, but we have to graduate people as generalists and as generalists, you get exposed to a lot of things and sometimes things you never imagine kind of, you know, tickle your fancy and you move in that direction. But how soon? What did you do for your first job and how when did you come to the point that that was the direction you wanted to pursue?
DL: So it's interesting. It was actually during PT school when I think I sort of figured out my trajectory. So I did, I had kind of that ortho slant, but it was when I started working with people with brain injuries and amputations and strokes that I learned how diverse our careers can be. But it was also in PT school when I had an opportunity to teach anatomy as an adjunct. And I remember being in the program and for I believe 3 semesters I taught undergraduate anatomy. And at that point I knew that I wanted to be a teacher. At that time, I knew that I wanted to be in higher education as well as being a physical therapist. And so after I got out, I did ortho outpatient, then I did inpatient acute rehab, and then I did skilled nursing with outpatient on the side. So, I almost always had multiple jobs and I was an adjunct. So, for the first five years, that's what it looked like. It looked I was in different settings working probably, you know, 40 to 60 hours and also teaching. And with the goal that I, I had this idea that I wanted to be in higher education and also a clinician.
SG: That’s great. I mean, it's, I think it's relatively unusual that early while still a student. Well, first of all, I don't think it's super easy in most PT programs to all of a sudden be involved in undergraduate teaching. And for you to do it three semesters to have the foresight to get involved in that. And then obviously that you know, that, that that was something that attracted you and you pursued that. But to have a plan that early and to be that proactive is wonderful.
When did you decide? I mean, at some point you must have decided said, look, if I ever really want to be in academia, I've got to have the credentials. And I know you have your PhD, but talk to talk to me about what you did to have the, it's one thing to be an adjunct and maybe not have a terminal degree or not have the, you know, the chops to, to be on a 10 year role or a full time faculty role. But what did you do to prepare yourself to make your CV attractive enough to be a, a professor?
DL: Yeah. And, and that's sort of the name of the game, Scott, is how can you be attractive? And I always in my mind, I always thought, what job did I want to apply for in the next three to five years? And what was the competition going to look like? So that always drove me to make my decisions. And so I was, it was about 2013 when I signed up for the geriatric certified specialty exam, and that's the GCS through the American Board of Physical Therapy specialty. So one of the boards, and I did that because I was working primarily in skilled nursing. I'm a fierce advocate for older adults. I felt that there was a real disconnect between high quality care and that patient population. So that drove me. But the backside of that was also I had now distinguished myself then versus everybody else that I worked with. And when I started looking at full time academic jobs, I saw that having board certification.
So that's what triggered me to ultimately be accepted for my first academic job, which was at the University of Hartford in Hartford, CT. And I was dual appointed to the Master's in prosthetics and orthotics and the doctor physical therapy program because clinically I primarily have specialized in older adults with orthopedic and amputations, orthopedic impairments and amputation. So that was sort of my natural fit there. So that's what got me in the door.
SG: OK. And then at what point did you decide to, I believe you have your PhD from Nova Southeastern, correct? OK. So was that while you were you pursuing that while you were a full time faculty member at Hartford?
DL: Yeah. So I started in in Hartford in 2014. And while I was in Hartford I began my PhD journey. And so I started in, I want to say 2015 maybe. And I graduated in 2020. So, while I was full time employed and at that time we had our first son Donovan, and then our daughter Vivian in 2013, 2025 respectively. I started the program, I finished in 2020. And now at this point I have that PhD, which if you're going to get into higher education, it's critical you have a terminal degree. It's, it's really not an option if you want to make a career out of it.
SG: But then did you pursue your second specialist certification simply to make me feel more inadequate than I currently do? Or was that the plan or was it, was there something else?
DL: It's, it's probably all driven by my own inadequacies, if that makes you feel better. I mean, it's clearly an insecurity thing, but the, the purpose I, I did, I went in 2022. I signed up for the OCS, the Orthopaedic Certified Specialist. And the reason I did that is because I own my own practice. And having owning my own practice, I realized that I couldn't depend on anybody else to be the expert. I had to be the expert. And I found that having been out for almost 10 years at that time or 12 years at that time, that that gave me my skills a reboot that I really needed. So that was that Orthopaedic Certified Specialist.
SG: I mean, there are not a lot in my opinion, of people who have achieved certification in multiple areas, especially areas that are that diverse. But so, I mean, kudos to you, clearly a lifelong learner. So, so look, many of your pursuits, I mean, obviously you've done a bunch of research. I mean, you were a contributor to Scorebuilders. I mean, it was, you know, it was funny. Remember when I, I kind of reached out to you and I'm like, Oh, my God, like Daniel's amputations, prosthetics, like perfect. And so we, you know, came to an arrangement. You did the section for the book and you did a fantastic job on it. You did it on time, which is almost unheard of, which I also appreciated. And then just somehow, I don't know if I was looking at your bio or you might have just said to me, you know, by the way, I'm also a geriatric specialist. And I think your book's a little thin in geriatrics or whatever you said, which was true. And I'm like, so Daniel all interested in something else. And so, I mean, it's great, right? I mean, people find out you have these expertise in these certain areas and it's opened, you know, it's open doors. I'm sure, you know, some, some big doors, some small doors, whatever, some meaningful doors, some doors you wish maybe you were never open. But but regardless, I, I think it's a wonderful thing. And, and again, a credit to the qualifications.
That's the thing. I, that's one of the things I really like when I look at your kind of career arc, is that you knew you wanted to be in education. And you know, there are a lot of clinicians who would love to be in education, but there is not a lot of clinicians that are willing to put in the time and effort. And that's not 'cause clinicians are lazy, people are crazy busy and life is nuts. But you knew that if you wanted to be a faculty member, you had that. You had to have the credentials and you had to have the certifications. And the combination of the two is, is incredible and which is obviously one of the reasons why you're able to rise to, you know, the Mount Olympus of a PT Academia. And that'll be a program chair.
Do you feel like you're on Mount Olympus everyday while you are the program chair?
DL: Well, you know, it's interesting, you know, no one so far. I haven't been, you know, fed grapes or they're not a lavishing of gifts. So it's, I like a challenge. You know, one thing I can say is I like to like to learn. I like to be challenged. I like to come up with solutions, but I also don't like doing the same job and only the same job. So part of my career plays into my almost intrinsic ADD that I have. And I think it's not that uncommon to be honest, especially for APT, but I like to do lots of different things well, rather than one thing only extremely well. So I, I find that's a better balance for me.
SG: Now that's great, Daniel, And you know, it reminds me, I saw this stat the other day. I was reading an article and I should have made note of where it was, but it was it. The stat I saw was 82.4% of physical therapists have experienced burnout. And to me, one of the best remedies for burnout is to have diversification of activities.
I mean, when I was in the clinic, I, I love being in the clinic #1 but, but I also didn't see myself doing that for 30-40, fifty years without something else. And that's when it, you know, in, in my situation, I, you know, I started the side hustle of score builders and started to write a review book and, and, and, you know, one thing led to another. It led me to academia. And, but, but you know, here's the funny thing. I was in academia, not in a role like you were, but I must have got in because there must have been no other applicants because I did not have the credentials. But I did sneak in the door. But I, but I love that fact. And I think if more physical therapists felt that there were opportunities to pick up, you know, pick any one of the 8 or 10 things you've done throughout your career or the 100 things you haven't done throughout your career, I have to believe that that diversity, you know, would be very helpful to. It makes it less mundane; it makes it more exciting; it makes it more challenging. I mean, patient care is plenty challenging, but it can be monotonous, especially with the administrative duties and the things that go with it. So, I just love that you kind of put your money where your mouth is. You had the, you know, the opportunities you earned, they were deserved, and they came to you and you capitalized on it.
Now, on a slightly different note, though, I'm really curious because then you did pivot and this, you know, I guess some of these things happen concurrently. But going into now a concierge home health PT practice, I think it's Home in the Hamptons, physical therapy. And let me just ask you one thing first. I read in the Wall Street Journal that Christie Brinkley, Rachel Ray, Billy Joel do have a minority share in that and we're helpful in the startup funding. Is that accurate or no?
DL: I can't disclose any of our investors, but let's just say, you know, we make sure to serve not only the celebrities of the area, but also our the regular old people like you or me who are just trying to make a buy. We serve everybody.
SG: OK, we, we need that. But how did you make that leap, Daniel? Because that your other pursuits were primarily educationally driven. Obviously being a clinician of any type is educational. But this is now a business practice. This is this is running a business on your own. And this was before you had to, you know, you're running the business at Stony Brook now being the program chair, but this was before that period of time. So tell me about that. Like what gave you even the confidence to think you could pull that off?
DL: I've never been short of confidence, even though it's not necessarily I'm not convinced I'm doing the right thing, but I have a strong internal compass. I'm very driven in a certain direction. So when I started at Stony, actually when I started, I moved from Connecticut to New York in 2019 and I relocated and I was looking to be more clinically. I've always been clinically active, even as an academic. And I looked and I saw my options and I was ready to start up with an outpatient clinic or a nursing facility. I looked in renting a space. And then COVID hit. And when COVID hit, the, all those other opportunities really became less desirable. And I said, you know what, I'm going to go out on my own. I'm just going to, I'm going to scale with myself. And my goal has always been I want to do clinical care, right? I want to do it to my standard, which means I need more time. It's concierge because it's contoured to the patient and our scheduling has to be as flexible as possible. Because of that, we're out of network with all insurances. So I wish I signed up for one of these courses that you can do, and somebody mentored me and trained me. I wish I had all that stuff, but it's been trial by fire for the most part.
There's a huge liability component to this. There's a there I'm my, my wife Miriam. She runs the office, she's the COO and, and everything else. I'm, I'm the PT. And so we had to create policy guides, we had to get insurance, we had to set up websites, everything. But it's been one of the best decisions I've ever made. The, the relationships I can form with people without having to worry so much about the insurance regulations has really liberated me and brought that passion that we have about physical therapy. The reason we got into it, to help people, back in. So, and I even branched off and have started a pro bono amputee clinic just to add on to it because where I live, we don't see a lot of individuals with limb loss. And that's a population I still want to be involved with.
So again, once you have your own business, you can carry a liability, you can carry, you have more freedom to what you want to do.
SG: Yeah, it's great. And certainly, you know, not having to deal with the, you know, the some of the hurdles associated with reimbursement. I mean, you know, that just has to, I think whenever any physical therapist hears that, that has to just make them giddy. Because obviously if we could get rid of certain parts of our job and focus on the parts that we love, I don't think the administrative part for too many people, it, it, you know, is more desirable than patient care.
DL: I would just say that the, the secret to it is the scalable nature of it. So I never set out to do this to make a lot of money. I never set out to, I don't even have the capacity to do it full time. So I, I, I nature limited to a very small group of people. You still have to collect the money, though. You still have to follow up on all those emails. You still have to get the phone calls going. You still have to get the find a client network and all that. But if you keep it small and it's truly a side hustle, it can be very rewarding, especially if you're not doing a clinical job five days a week for 8 hours a day. So that's where I think the, if I can kind of put this out to new PTs listening or people who are out there, I feel like the best of both worlds is if you can be in an academic setting as well as have your clinical practice, you learn to really appreciate both.
SG: That makes a, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, look, a wife, two kids. I don't know what number of jobs we have now, you know, small, big, this that. I mean, talk to me about your work life balance. I mean, do you sleep?
DL: Sometimes well, sometimes not, but it, it not necessarily I think, well, maybe it is sometimes too much work. Work life balance is extremely important. I, I don't think anybody, you know, is on their deathbed saying I wish I worked more. So I, you know, I'm very mindful about that work life balance. So I get up early, I get up about, you know, 4:30-5:00 AM exercise for about an hour, hour and a half every day. I meditate, I try to eat right. I make sure to spend time with the kids every day and make sure to be a, a good husband above and beyond every day. So I really, I prioritize things and I've learned to say no. So for I'm now in the field about 14 years. So over the last three to four years, I'm just saying no, which can be hard. Like, for example, I had to step back from doing Scorebuilders classes, which I love doing, which were such a great. It's great getting out there in front of the students and helping them prepare and pass the boards. I mean, it's such a thrill. The energy is so strong. But you do you have to start making decisions about five years.
SG: Yeah, No, it makes sense. And even the score of those course, right, You're flying out the day before. Typically you're teaching for two days. You may or may not get back that same evening. I mean, yeah, I know it's it's a lot.
Daniel, I'm glad you brought that up about saying no because I think it's a great time to maybe talk about the fact that at CSM this year, Scorebuilders had a social and I'm pretty sure I ran into you earlier in the exhibit hall and you were going to attend. And the night went on and I kept thinking, surely he's coming next hour, Surely he'll be coming this hour. So I don't know if any of the listeners out there have ever had a friend who, you know, was they kind of got big, you know, they were programmed chair, they were super well known, started to hang in different circles. And then, you know, you didn't you didn't kind of see them as much. Was that something was that purposeful?
DL: So for the record, it was in the, it was in the lobby of the Westin I believe I, I totally walked in there with my two colleagues. We just given a presentation on Lyme disease. We were a little, little burnt out. I have, you know, I was, I looked, I didn't see anybody and we ended up going to a crummy little bar and having some stale quesadillas. And I'm, I'm going to tell you right now, I've been to these Scorebuilders parties. The drinks are pouring, the food is excellent, the company is great. So I think the real loser in this situation was me, Scott.
SG: OK, I, I'm just questioning the, the story a little bit though, because I'm 6’5 and in a hotel lobby. Your observation skills are strong.
No, I'm Daniel, I'm totally kidding you. CSM is, I mean, you're going from 6:00 AM to 10:00 PM, you know, and maybe later every day. So I'm totally just posting on you.
DL: Well, I, again, I appreciate the invite. Believe it or not, I don't get invited to a lot of parties. So I appreciate anytime I am next time I, although I don't think I'm going to this next one. That's one part of saying no is saying no to travelling to Houston this year, this upcoming year.
SG: But OK, well, next time, next time for sure. All right, give me talk to me about a couple of your best career decisions. When you look back, the absolute best and and this could be a position, it could be a decision you made that that, you know, fueled something later in your career. What do you think? A couple real good things you've done.
DL: OK, First one is align yourself with great people. So I've had great mentors along the way. And in fact, none of my success now is completely from the mentors I've had, along with I've had great clinical mentors, academic mentors, professional mentors like yourself. So seeking out people who inspire you, who challenge you and who support you. So that's always been a key to everything I've done.
Having that support at home. So I think my, my wife and kids put that on there. And I, and I know you know that from working alongside Traci for so many years, your lovely and talented wife. And then when it really comes to sort of the, the pieces when they started to come together, it was when I got that full time academic position that all those doors open. So when I became a full time academic, I, I had just my GCS, that was it. And then because when you're an academic, they support you in, in, in continuing education. I became a certified orthopedic manual therapist. I worked and got my PhD I was asked to be a legal expert, which just to talk about a little bit has been very rewarding, extremely challenging, extremely challenging. It's provocative, it puts you in a vulnerable position that you have never been in for your entire life, and it will make you more uncomfortable than you probably ever wanted to be. But if you're very selective and you're always honest and tell the truth, it's highly rewarding to do that type of work.
And again, all of that sort of came out of that first step in the higher education. So, so I would say the key to everything was that first full-time academic position. That's when we met, that's when I started teaching continuing education. That's when I did research, that's when I became an author, that’s when I got to give talks. All of that came from that.
SG: That's really interesting. And Daniel, it's funny because I, I can really relate to that because when I was in the clinic 4 year, four or six years in, I guess it was six years in my, the, my former boss who hired me had moved on to the University of New England a couple years earlier. And it just contacted me one day and said, look, there's a, there's a DCE job available and I think you'd be perfect for it. And, and I, and I, I will say very in a similar vein, the academic environment, you know, which fosters writing and presentation and dissemination and all those things ended up being, you know, really important in terms of building Scorebuilders. And it also, I mean, it was good for the school as well in terms of, you know, bringing notoriety to individuals that put things out, etcetera. So, you know, it's just different than the clinical setting.
So I kind of like what you had said earlier where you have kind of a perfect mix in your mind is if you can do some teaching and then you can do some clinical work and you kind of appreciate both sides of the fence. So that's great. What about what about a big fish that got away or, you know, hey, 20 years ago, I wish I had done this. You know, just looking back, is there is there anything you think of that, you know, might be helpful for to share with the listeners?
DL: Yeah, I, I mean, I think the relationships you're making along the way from PT school onward, all of those relationships that you have matter. And it's a very, very, very small world. And so in, you know, sometimes when I look back, there are lots of relationships I should have nurtured more and should have grown. And, you know, it's, it's, it pains me when I look back because the there were opportunities just to grow together rather than being so focused on my own sort of trajectory. I didn't really look at the bigger picture. And now that I've come to a place where I'm really pretty settled in, I don't have any. I really for the first time don't have an agenda other than to work with a great program to make it even better. I think back to that.
So that's probably, you know, the other thing I would say is aspirations are great. They they can drive you. The anxiety of the what ifs can sort of drive you and motivate you. But it's also OK to be OK where you are.
SG: Oh, absolutely.
DL: And know your priorities and know what's your value system, because I have all those job changes and, and promotions and different pathways pull you away from something else. And so you know that that's they're not growth is not always a good thing, but I can say where I am now, it all worked out in the end.
SG: Now that's great. That's that's great wisdom and I think can only come from years and years of experience. You know, it's tough. I mean, I, I still feel bad about some things like that in terms of staying in touch with people or, you know, whatever it may be, but I don't know, I haven't reconciled that fully yet either. But when you get to a point and I, I like the what you said now, you know, I really don't have an agenda Now I'm comfortable where I am. I know, I know you, you're going to continue to innovate, you're going to run a great program, you're going to be, you know, you love the challenge and, and that's great. So we don't go dormant, but I think it at certain point in our career, you know, we can look at things a little bit differently that maybe we couldn't earlier. So you're, you're clearly at that point, which is great.
One of the questions I love to ask people, it's one of my favorite podcasts, is How I built this. And one of the one of the things that the podcast host asks every person is when reflecting on your professional activities, how much of your success do you attribute to luck and how much is attributed to hard work?
DL: That's a that's a good question. I don't, I've been very fortunate in life. I, I, I've just, I have, I've had a loving family, great parents, wonderful upbringing, opportunities. I've always had opportunities. I'm extremely fortunate and privileged in the regard that I had those opportunities. But I will say nothing really started happening for me until I made it happen. So I would argue that, you know, 90% of it is hard work really.
I mean, I, I can tell you the moment in my career when everything changed, it was anatomy of my first year in PT school and the first anatomy test. I did well and I turned to my classmates and we had a bet. The loser had to eat an entire suitcase of White Castle burgers, which if you don't know is a just a tremendous amount of really heavy-duty belly bombers. And so that was all the motivation I needed to not lose that bet. And I came alive like I didn't know I was capable of. And I soon went from sort of just average, I'd say for the most part to top of the class academically. And not only that, I loved what I was doing and then that I, I never lost it after that. So that was hard work. I'm not any more intelligent than anybody else. I'm don't think I'm any luckier, but I recognize a goal. I break it down into the steps I need to do and then I work to accomplish it.
SG: Yeah. You're, you're the definition of a grinder. I know you enough to know that. And and that's that's great. I mean, you, you you deserve all the great things that have happened to you. All right, this is an interesting one for you. You're in a unique position to answer this. So you're a program chair. Healthcare is constantly changing. I mean, the, the concierge service that we talked about is just one example of that. My physician now is a part of a concierge service, and it's becoming very mainstream. It's not, it's not for the elite or rich or certainly I would not have one. But it's, you know, look, things are changing all the time, and physical therapists are redefining the landscape and they're redefining where they work and how they work and when they work and all those kind of things.
What do you feel the academic program's role is to prepare students not just for the environment that exists now, but to maybe drive entrepreneurism or just change the practice of physical therapy because it's a competitive marketplace, right? And there's plenty of other healthcare professions that have done a pretty effective job in this. And I'm not, I feel we've lagged behind a little bit in physical therapy, but yet I feel we're in such a great position being the generalist that we are and, and with our education to take advantage of some of these opportunities exist. So, So what can you do if I'm a student sitting in front of you and I say, look, I'm really interested in Stony Brook, but you know, talk to me. We, I'm going to pay a lot of money to come to your school. You know, what, what can I do? What do you bring to the table that's different than any other school? Or even more broadly, what can we do as a physical therapy profession?
DL: Sure. Now that that's a great question and I think that's important that we talk about that and everybody should be considering what are we doing as a profession, what is the future look like. So as a program, I see it as our duty if we are admitting a student, we have formed a relationship and we have a duty now to provide that student with a high-quality education in line with our mission. And it's generally been we want to produce a generalist who can go out there and continue lifelong learning. But the field has changed. It really has. Not only has physical therapy in of itself has had wage stagnation, although we're we're seeing an increase again and proliferation of schools, meaning, you know, physical therapy students have more and more options and we have shorter programs. We have two-year programs, 2 and a half. The options have just gotten numerous. So the student in a way is overwhelmed. But what I would like students to know and what I would like to bring to our program is that not only are you going to be a great generalist, you're also, I want you to pass that board exam on your first try. I want to give you a better return on investment for your education. And then as a graduate, I want you to follow your passion. I want you to find out what you're passionate about, what area you're passionate about, whether it's education, service, clinical care or something therefore, research and then I, I want you to focus on that and the money will come. And you know, the first five years are going to be a bit of a blur, but after that you can start making your way.
Credential yourself, credential yourself early and often and separate yourself from the pack. If there's 10,000 PTS graduating every year, what's going to make you look different? Who's going to be applying for that job that you want in five years? What did they do that you're not doing? Did they volunteer? When I went to get my first academic job, I volunteered with an amputee group. I volunteered for research projects, I got involved in adjuncting. I built all these steps so that I could apply and be a viable candidate.
So that's my advice. It's follow your passion. Separate yourself and all of the opportunities will come. Don't chase the money. It's the long field for money.The money will come. It will come. I know some people don't believe it, but the money is there.
SG: No, I, I definitely agree with that. And, and you know, I, it's funny because even having some, some of the recordings we've done to date or even their initial discussions with people, I find that many of the folks that have been super successful, their initial focus was not getting out of school. And like, what can I do to pay off my student loans in a year? It was how do I become the absolute best clinician I can be? How do I network with the best surgeons that are out there? How do I position myself so that my practice is the most respected? And you know, and whether that's through credentials or outcomes or whatever it may be, that's the path that I've seen. Much like you're echoing your story where doors start to open and then when you get through that door, you know, you've kind of established yourself. There's a whole host of other opportunities. It just they're not reasonable for an immediate new graduate to have those opportunities available to them. So you can still look and you can dream and you can come up with your five year or ten year plan or whatever it may be, but make yourself the best physical therapist you can be. And that's a lot of what I heard you say as well. And it really does play out in talking to a lot of other people that have gone through this process.
DL: So I would just, you know, and it's really about expectations. I think you brought up a great point. You know, in those first couple years, the expectation as a PT, a new PT, what that's going to look like. And so you really don't know until you get there. But you shouldn't be broke. You should have money. You will have money and so you probably will do some extra hours and it may not be out of passion, it may be out of need. I'm with you. I did that. I still do that. I still work very, very hard to make things work.
However, when you really think about the long term game here and what you why you got into PT and if you got into PT to help people that will guide you. So I went from a generalist who thought it was sports to an amputee specialist to an older adult amputee ortho specialist. And that's sort of been where I'm most comfortable. And I learned I didn't want to be an inpatient anymore. I couldn't, I just couldn't handle the bathroom. I couldn't handle those trips to the bathroom. So I said that's not for me. So you'll learn, but your expectations over those first years are to find something you're passionate about and credential yourself to your that person and all of the opportunities will be there for you.
SG: Yeah, that's great advice. Daniel, do you, do you see any real emerging trends or even, I mean, I think you're kind of a, you're a very forward-looking guy. So, I mean, do you see areas in physical therapy that maybe, I don't know, maybe underserved at this point in time? Or do you see opportunities or avenues for physical therapists to make inroads in that maybe is not a primary area where physical therapists are practicing today? Or just trying to think about opportunities for people who are going to be thinking about entrepreneurism, trying to give them some areas to maybe focus or at least think about or consider?
DL: Yeah, well, I think that concierge market's a big one and I think there's going to be tons of opportunity. I, you know, wouldn't be surprised if one out of every 10 PTS out there puts up their own shingle, so to speak, in a mobile concierge type of format. And I think if you're niched in and you scale it properly and you're not relying on it, you're doing it sort of on your off hours, that's going to be rewarding financially and will lead to more opportunities. So I, I, the, the piece of that though, is you have to be marketable. So for every person who wants to put their shingle who maybe has 20 years of experience but no extra credentials, they have to go follow up against somebody with all of these credentials. So the big market I think is going to be that that mobile concierge.
The other piece I'd say is looking at higher education is we have more hybrid programs now and a lot of those allow faculty to work remotely and work on your own hours. And so you can really have a nice balance with that. And I think that's only going to expand. It's, it's not for all PT programs, but there's going to be a place. So again, I think that is a great opportunity for PTs. The, the market has only expanded social media marketing just, it's really gone through the roof. But what I don't always see is I don't always see the credentials and the resume to match what people are claiming. So that that would be the piece. It falls a little short if you can't back it up.
SG: No, I, I, I like that. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm absolutely bullish on the, the future of physical therapy. And I, I think, you know, that honestly, that was the goal of this podcast is just to, you know, have some great folks like yourself out in front of people and talk about their story and talk about what they've done and to encourage others. Because I think a lot of times what we find out is that the people who have done these things, they're not, they're not special. You know what? I, and I'm not Daniel, you may be special. I'm not special. And you know, but we're capable of doing some real good things, you know, if we put our nose down and we're willing to put in the work, etcetera, etcetera. So it's this is being an entrepreneur at some level is attainable for any individual who can graduate PT or PTA program.
I mean, it's no, no doubt about it in my mind. And there's a lot of steps, but you mentioned mentorship, obviously idea creation, planning, credentialing, etcetera. These are all things that move you faster on the superhighway. So I really want to thank you for, you know, spending the time with us today because I and I'm serious about this. I know I was kidding you before about the the saying no to the Scorebuilders piece, but but I know you do have a lot going on. I have a tremendous amount of respect for you. You're a super bright guy. I love how big your engine is and I really appreciate you taking the time to to join us on the podcast today.
DL: Scott, it was my pleasure. Thank you again for all you do Scorebuilders to me is the best preparation product there is. It helped me pass that test on the first try. And that's what if you actually want to think back, what got us together was I emailed you and I said I would like to be an instructor for you because I use this and I use the other guys.
SG: That's funny, I didn't remember how we actually connected.
DL: But this is like one of my favorite. So in our program, we have the score builders course, but I wasn't there. I was in California at a clinical and at this time it had to be in person. So I missed it. So I bought the other guy's book.
SG: OK.
DL: And I go through the other guy's book and I was a bright student, right? I had a good GPAI take the first Test, 58. I said, Oh my God, what's the time? That was OK, no problem. You OK going to study a little bit more, Take the 2nd test 59 and I said Oh my God. So then I went and I got the score builders book at Barnes and Noble opened it up. I go through, I take the 1st test, I get a 72. I said OK, this isn't so bad, not great, but I'm OK right now. Take the next one, 75. Take the real test 75 or something. I don't remember what it was almost perfectly. It almost perfectly correlated with the Scorebuilders test and I was a believer ever since then.
And that's what got us together because I knew as a student how desperate I felt and score builders was the only thing that walked me off that ledge and gave me that confidence.
SG: That's really nice.
DL: I mean, you're responsible for me. You're responsible for what you brought onto this world.
SG: I guess I would have thought you would have come if I knew you felt this way. I guess I would have thought you would have come to a social. No, Daniel that's a sweet story. And I was not definitely not looking for a plug, but but I I do appreciate that. And I actually, I really had, I've forgotten how we connected, but you've done tremendous, you've been tremendous instruction.
DL: You said, you said, could you send me a video of you teaching? And I said, and you said, you know what, why don't you? But I see you have this, you're a GCS and you have been an item writer in the past. Can you do some what about some of this stuff? And then that’s how we got through it.
SG: Too funny. Another thing, right. You ended up writing items and being the director for was it the geriatric item writing piece or what was it?
DL: Up until this year, just stopped this year. It's another one of those you got to say no, sometimes a coordinator, content experts for the geriatric section that that was very rewarding too.
SG: Your vocation are endless and your and your talents are as well. Daniel, thanks a lot for joining us. I really appreciate it.
Voiceover: And there you have it. Another dose of PT-preneurial inspiration to fuel your journey. Check out more inspiring stories from PTs and PTAs out there making waves by listening and subscribing to our podcasts on your favorite streaming platforms. And don't forget to rate and review this podcast. Thanks for listening.