Episode 1: Scott Giles – Scorebuilders

Innovate and Rehabilitate: The Entrepreneurial PT kicks off with the story of Scorebuilders. Scott Giles founded Scorebuilders in 1990, shortly after his graduation from the physical therapy program at Springfield College. Today, Scorebuilders is the recognized leader in PT and PTA licensure. Scott shares the exciting journey of turning a humble start into a major success. His story is a powerful example for students, demonstrating how a new graduate can become a successful entrepreneur without initial funding or special resources.

Voiceover: So you're a PT or PTA grad who's feeling the spark of something more. Maybe you dream of building your own business, one that's constructed around your vision, one that empowers you to make a real difference on your terms. This feeling, it's the entrepreneurial itch. And you're not alone. Countless PTs and PTAs are taking the leap to entrepreneurship, crafting careers that are as unique as they are. 

Welcome to the Innovate and Rehabilitate the Entrepreneurial PT podcast. In each episode, we'll dive deep into the world of PT-preneurship with Inspiring physical therapists and physical therapist assistants just like you, who are crushing it on their terms. We'll uncover their secrets, their struggles, and the incredible impact they're making. From building your PT boss dreams to navigating the business side of things, will equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to turn your vision into reality.

So, whether you're just curious about starting your own business, or you're already out there making your dreams a reality, this podcast is for you. Get ready to unleash your inner entrepreneur. Let's do this!

Scott Giles (SG): Welcome. My name is Scott Giles, and I will be the primary host for this podcast on entrepreneurial pursuits in physical therapy. I founded Scorebuilders in 1990, less than a year after graduating from physical therapy school. The first episode of this podcast will be a bit unique since we're going to explore the Scorebuilders story. I feel it's a compelling story that should resonate with our listeners since it shows how a new grad with no funding and virtually no skills became an entrepreneur.

I've asked my colleague Jannah Amiel to serve as the host for this inaugural podcast. Jannah’s a nurse and has hosted a variety of podcasts, including her most recent Scrubs and Subpoenas. Jannah, welcome to the podcast.

Jannah Amiel (JA): Thank you so much, Scott. I'm really excited to host this with you. I'm excited to be the inaugural host for this first episode

SG: Absolutely

JA: You know, I want to, I have to say I'm, I'm really, really, really geeked about it because I do think in listening too to your intro that new anybody, new students, a new practitioner, a new any person is uniquely positioned to start a business, to start a business in that field. So I am really, really excited to talk about this with you.

SG: I agree with you 100%. And I don't think that's the mantra sometimes people have, But one of the one of the things I was excited about for the podcast itself, like you, is it once you start to talk to these people, most people who started a business of some type or even just a passion project, service project, whatever, they didn't go into this overly qualified, but yet they learn on the job, they're motivated and they get it done. And that's, that's what we'd like to see physical therapists and physical therapist assistants consider themselves an entrepreneur in the future.

JA: Absolutely, absolutely. And Scorebuilders has a really interesting story. So you talked about when you started. So Scorebuilders prepares students for the NPTE, right? The National Physical Therapy Exam, right? And you've been doing that for over 3 decades. That's a long time.

SG: It’s the gray hair Jannah.

JA: The hair looks fabulous. It's a great time. And you serve both PTs and PTAs, right, For their licensure? So many products, this company Scorebuilders as a broad product line, a lot of innovative, innovative, excuse me, learning resources, right, to help students pass the exam, right? Give you the best opportunity to pass the exam. And did I get this right, that Scorebuilders sells more than 30,000 products a year and over 300 courses that you're doing, review courses a year?

SG: Yeah, we do. We do. It's, we've been tremendously blessed in order for that to happen. We're super committed to what we do. But yeah, our customers are responsible for that. So but that that that's accurate. But it sure didn't start that way Jannah.

JA: Yeah, I mean, you have more products than I have shoes, and that is an impressive number.

SG: I'm doubting that, Jannah. I'm just saying. So I'm going to have to have verification on that.

JA: Well, Scott, I want to get into it. Like, tell me a little bit about your background. Tell us about your background. How did you just even get into physical therapy? There's so many things that you could have done. Why this?

SG: True. You know, I got lucky. I'll be honest with you. It's I think it's an interesting little piece on how this happened. So I'll just take a minute to explain this. But honestly, I was a pretty poor student, and I wasn't that interested in academics. I was kind of interested in athletics and my sister was a year before me, my oldest sister who happened to be valedictorian, of course. And so, you know, I was pretty used to the, you know, the parent teacher conference where Scott's not living up to his potential, which so, you know, I wasn't sure what I was going to do. And, and let me say, I grew up in southern Maine. I have two wonderful siblings, two supportive parents. And so all, all was good. 

But so, Jannah, I had no idea what I wanted to do in college because all I really wanted to do is play athletics and I was not didn't have the skills that were that was going anywhere. But so anyway, so I had a guidance counselor who suggested I take this really detailed career inventory. And the only thing that I remember from it is one of the top three items for my possible future vocation was a jockey. I'm 6 foot five and weigh 200lbs at a time. So I think that tells you how lost I was as part of, as part of that process. So, so anyways, I didn't my, my dreams of being a jockey, apparently, which I didn't know I had, but I would have been apparently well suited for did not happen. So, I went to school to Springfield College, which I love Springfield College, great experience. And I, I was a physical education major with the idea that I would one day be a coach. So I teach, you know, teach phys Ed, teach gym, be a coach and, you know, live happily ever after. That was a plan.

But as fate would have it, kind of the day before I graduated high school, I, I had a, an accident playing basketball where I really did a number on my knee. And yeah. And so I plan on playing college athletics and, you know, it just, it was problematic. So I had surgery right away. By the time I went to Springfield College in the fall, I was not ready to, to play athletics and was questionable whether I would really be able to again. And so that competitive side of me, which never applied to academics, kind of like I realized you can actually study from books and you can bring books home and you can complete assignments successfully and do all these kind of things. And so I did, I did well in school, but I knew that phys Ed was probably not my end game. And, and, and I love my physical therapy experience, but quite frankly, I would have gotten into a, there's not a single physical therapy school in the country that I would have gotten into out of high school. 

So as luck would have it, and this was very odd in this time of year because physical, meaning this period of time in 1989, because physical therapy, well, that was the year I graduated actually. So even earlier than that, PT was a really hot commodity. But somehow this program ended up with two slots open in the, to transfer into after the first year. And I had done really well academically. And so, you know, some, by a stroke of luck, they actually took me in. 

Well, the funniest part of this to me was that so I go in to meet with the program chair, and the program chair is saying, you know, hey, Scott, we got to lay out your schedule because you have to make up for a year. You're going to have to take some summer courses. You're going to have to do all these things. And there was this young lady in the office that she introduced me to who was in the class that I was going to join, but she had taken all of the courses the previous year, you know, which would be the normal progression for someone who didn't transfer in. And so she introduced me and even suggested that, you know, maybe that this individual, Traci, might be willing to sell me some of her books from courses she had already taken, etcetera, save me some money. 
Anyways, this ended up being my wife, who is still my wife today, 34 years ago. So that was probably the greatest period of time in my life where I get into physical therapy, I'm thrilled, and I meet this wonderful woman who ends up being my wife. So anyway, so that was that was how I came to physical therapy. But it was it was nothing short of a miracle, honestly, because I was not qualified.

JA: That is that is a wild story. That's a great story. I feel like you ended up right where you should have been.

SG: Yeah, it's it seems it. I mean, I'm super glad that I did and to, you know, find your, you know, your wife at the same time and just be thrilled about that. And so anyways, I feel I feel blessed, no doubt.

JA: That's beyond luck. So you had a, I'm going to say you had a great experience then in physical therapy school. We will attribute all of that to Traci.

SG: You know what, you're not wrong. You are not wrong.

JA: So then what, what's next? Like when you finish physical therapy school, what was your first job? I mean, because here you are founder of Scorebuilders, but what was your first job like? What was the beginning for you?

SG: Yeah, so my first job was, you know, I was still interested in athletics, obviously, even though I couldn't compete. And so I was very interested in orthopedic sports medicine, although I I did truly enjoy all my clinical experiences. And as a PT you graduate as a generalist. So, you know, I was exposed to hospitals, you know, rehabilitation facilities throughout the lifespan, patient age, etcetera. But I felt that orthopedics would be my landing spot. So, I took a job in a clinic that was being built. It was not going to open for six months. And that worked out well because I had yet another knee surgery immediately after graduating in May. And I knew I had to take the licensing exam in July. And Maine did not have temporary licensing anyways, and so I had to be licensed in order to practice. So when I'm preparing for the exam, obviously I started to see what was out there for review books and resources. And I wasn't really thrilled with any of the resources that were out there.

Number one, there weren't many at all and number 2, the ones that were out there felt like medical books that were kind of spun for physical therapy, but the physical therapy wasn't the primary intent. And so, I was super fortunate to pass the exam, but that kind of stuck with me. Like, you know, maybe there's an opportunity here because they're the market is lacking a real quality review product. So then when I passed the exam and I wasn't starting work till October, I just started to see if I could put something together or I could start to even outline, you know, what would even be the beginning of a book that if I could, I mean, because the advantage I had is I did just take the exam and I was just complete an entry level program. But of course, the disadvantage I have is I didn't have a clue what I was doing right, and I had no business background to speak of either. But that's, that's how, you know, my first employment started and that's how kind of Scorebuilders, the foundation of Scorebuilders kind of kicked off.

JA: I love that. I love that because again, like back to what we were saying earlier, I think that's the thing like we, we meaning like all the fresh eyes, the fresh ears, the fresh brains, like get out of school. You identify a void that sometimes folks that are way, way, way seasoned don't see, right? Like they're way past it. It's not something that they recognize, but to be so fresh in a field and in a profession, you have a good advantage because you really do see everything for the first time in a way that other folks maybe don't see it. So, it sounds like you recognize a void in how we prep, right? Prepping for the test and that this maybe isn't the best we can do better. And I love that. I think that that's really inspiring and motivating because sometimes you feel like you want to make the difference. But like, who am I? I don't know anything about this. Like, how could I?

SG: Oh, yeah, I definitely felt like that. I wasn't sure even once I started if this would ever happen, but I knew that I had the time and I was curious about it and I thought there were some pros as well. And so I really had nothing to lose, quite frankly.

JA: Yes. And it, when you said it, you said like you didn't have any actual business background or, or business training. So, like, what was it? Do you think that there's like you just have personal attributes that helped you do this to help you build a business? Like, how did you even get to this point?

SG: Well, I mean, Jannah, I wouldn't say I had no business background. I had two paper routes. And paper routes back in the day was I would either walk through the neighborhood or drive my bike. So I mean, I had to put my route together. That's logistics. I had to collect from people. That's finance. I had to deal with unhappy people when I forgot them on my paper route because that really wasn't the best paper boy, you know? So yeah, no, I I knew nothing. I absolutely knew nothing. But. But again, you know, I felt like I, I felt like I knew it enough to I mean, I, I knew enough that I had to put together something that resembled a book. I knew that someone would have to print that book. I knew that I had, once I went out to different printers and kind of estimated the, the length of the book, I went out to different printers and looked at cost, like what would it cost me for a spiral bound book? And what's the smallest quantity I can possibly get printed? And that was 100. And then I made the determination that with my graduation money and the money that I was, you know, doing through odd jobs after graduation, I had enough to purchase like 100 books and that would leave me enough for a small marketing budget. And, and, and that was really all that I knew about running this. I knew I had to get a post office box because we had no legitimate business address, obviously. So I rented a post office box and and I'll be honest that that was about the, that was about the extent of it.

JA: Wow, you're like, we're in the money now. I got a PO Box.

SG: Well, I hadn't sold any. That was only that was only money outflow. That was no money inflow.

JA: Well, I mean, it's such a big jump, but it's, it's, it's a big jump, right? Like it's, it's a big risk and saying that, hey, like I'm going to go forward and do this. So, when you were working through that and like, you know, you had this plan, you started out, you've got books like you're working towards this business. How did you work through that decision making process yourself and evaluating like I'm going to go forward with this, the benefits greater than the risk because it, it is risky. How do you make that decision that this is something worthwhile doing?

SG: Yeah. I, I think it was just literally, you know, writing down on a piece of paper, you know, the pros on one side and the cons on the other and the pros, again, I felt I had identified a legitimate need. There wasn't much out there, and what was out there wasn't good. So, I felt I could probably put something together over time that was at least as good as what was out there. And the idea was to get something better than what was out there, obviously. I didn't know I have enough, I had enough money for that and for that initial investment on the on the downside. Oh, and of course, my financial situation was terrible. So, I also viewed that if this was successful, you know, this kind of side hustle, this might be something that could improve my financial situation over time and as well give me something different to do or diversify my activities beyond just treating patients in the clinic. 

On the downside, I felt that, you know, I could be wasting a lot of time doing this and I just wasn't capable, you know, intellectually or otherwise of putting something together that would be viable. But I had time. So, you know, that was fine. I also, there was a potential this could be embarrassing, like I would put this out and it would just not be good, like really not good and or I would make too many mistakes. I would have these books printed, I'd have to throw them all away, which would only worsen my bleak financial situation. But when I added the pros and the cons, you know, I, I thought there was not a great deal of risk and I think there was more upside. And so I decided to let's go.

JA: That's really fair. That's a good idea. I think sometimes we're good at talking ourselves out of ideas that we have for fear. Like what if it's just not good enough, right? That type of thing.

SG: And I should give my wife credit on that too, because, you know, she wasn't my wife at the time. So, so after we got out of school, we were engaged, but we weren't getting married till the next year. So she went home to New Jersey, I went home to Maine and we lived, we lived at home with our parents to save money. But she was very encouraging. She would do editing for me. She would, you know, let me listen to my ideas and bounce things off her.

And so that was really important too, because I think you have to have someone who champions you because everyone has self-doubt, right? And I was really, you know, out of my league with what I was trying to pull off, but I was too naive to really know it. But I still needed the encouragement. And so Traci, Traci was a tremendous source of encouragement during that time and it honestly, it wouldn't have happened without her.

JA: That's fantastic. That's fantastic. So we, we're talking about kind of the humble beginnings a book, right, which is very common. We use review books a lot of times to prepare for taking these tests. But today Scorebuilders is way more than just a book. We talked about 30,000 products. I'd love to know how do you grow that, right? How do you start from like here's a book to 30,000 things later? How did this happen over time?

SG: Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure to be honest with you. Well, number one, you do it for a long time. As you can tell by these gray hairs. We've been doing it for a long time. So this is nothing happened quickly, right? This is 34 years and counting at this point. But, you know, so just as people started to use the products a little bit.

And again, it was it was bad. Let me let me actually just grab this. This is this is one of the two remaining copies of our original resource. This is the latest in desktop publishing at the time. Oh, my God, It's terrible. It's embarrassing. So here's like look at the page, look at the font. You kidding me? This is gait deviations. And then if we go to the intense question and answer period or section, this is kind of stuff we're dealing with. I know I don't know why I showed this. It is embarrassing. So that's that's one thing I would like the listeners to give me a little bit of a break on, on that, because, you know, desktop publishing was not what it was. We're talking pre-Internet, we're talking, you know what I mean? Pretty much. So it was a different world, but made no mistake, even in that world it was bad. But I only had 100 printed. I knew it could be better next time. And so that set us off kind of on 34 years of continuous product improvement. 

But so to your question as to how did it change or how do we grow? How did the product line develop? We just started getting requests from our customers. Like people started using the book again because it wasn't much out there. And so they started using the book and we got some good feedback on the book and we certainly had suggestions to improve it and we embrace those kind of suggestions. But then people would start to say like, hey, Scott, would you be willing to come talk to our students for a day? Will you come talk to the faculty about test taking? And then it turned into, you know, Scott, you came for a day last year, but would you be willing to come for two days? And so, we started marketing one day and two-day courses. And then students would say, like, you know, the book's a little even in its state, right? It's a kind of a little overwhelming. I don't know how that could be overwhelming, but, but at the time it felt overwhelming. And, and so it was like, it'd be great if you had kind of Cliff notes or flash cards. And then academic programs would say, Scott, we, we use your review book in our group, but we, it'd be, we'd like to have a, an exam that's only for academic faculty that we could give like a capstone and then it would generate performance data related to student performance. And that ended up being Online Advantage. And then at one point students would, we heard a number of students say, you know, be really cool if there was more of a competitive nature to some of the academic review or there was more gamified. And that ended up kind of launching Basecamp.

So we were, we were always on the hunt to product to expand our products, but we also had to be very cognizant of our finances because we had to look at, you know, there are a lot of great ideas that get put in front of us every month, quite frankly. But we really have to weigh what's the return on investment? Do we have the content expertise to do that? And if we do that, is it going to take away from our primary core tools that we are, you know, committed to continually improve over time? So we always have to, it's a delicate balance, but I give our customers all the credit, you know, for our product line expansion, because almost every good idea of Scorebuilders has had started based on a, a customer comment that's been sent to us.

JA: That is fantastic. So really when we think about then like the expansion of the products and all the different types of products, it was the, the voice of the customer that really helped to drive those decisions.

SG: Absolutely. And then the other thing that really helped us as well is we, when I don't know why I didn't realize this earlier, but we realized that there was even less out there for the PT assistant market. And, and if you think about PTA, PTA is a great profession and it's really a subset of physical therapy. I mean, it's a lot of physical therapy material that that any entry level physical therapist is going to have to know, but it's obviously not all of it. And so it became a very, a fairly easy spin for us to take our PT, you know, resources and then, you know, just make those PTA appropriate. And PTA was a wonderful market for us, and it was underserved. And so they, the people really appreciated us getting into that marketplace and we were thrilled to get into that marketplace and you know, do as much PTA Business Today almost as we do on the on the PT side. So that was that was something that really allowed us to accelerate sales. And of course, the more, the more revenue we brought in, the more we could invest into the product and develop future products, etcetera. So it's everything kind of just started, you know, to build momentum, the wheel started to move and then picked up speed gradually over time.

JA: Wow, that's amazing. So at this point then, is it still just you and Traci doing this? Do you have employees? Like, I mean, 'cause this is a lot. This is a lot just for two people to handle.

SG: Yeah. And Jannah, we were, we were just nuts. Like we were just like there was a three ring circus in our house at all times. So, so I, so I had the full time job in the orthopedic clinic. I did about 8 hours a week of sports performance over at the local high school and I was running the business. Traci was working full time in a rehabilitation hospital, would do home health patients after work and, and was involved in certain aspects of the business as well. So, it was crazy. 

So we eventually got to the point and then we had our first child, which obviously, you know, blessing, obviously, but complicated things a lot. And so we ended up hiring an, an office manager for I think it was half time, I think it was 20 hours. And we, you know, while we work, they were up in one of our spare bedrooms that we converted into an office and, and that, and that was our first employee. And, and over time again, as our product line grew and as we have more resources, then we would start to invest in full time folks.

So you know, when Scorebuilders is fully staffed, when we were mature, we're pretty much 4 full time equivalents from another three to six part time people. And we've always relied on a good network of consultants. So whether that's subject matter experts, whether it's typographers, whether it's animators, whether it's tech team, whether it's printers, you know, graphics market design, you know, marketing materials, etcetera, all of those kind of things. And that, and that was necessary because we needed people with very specific skill sets, But we can't afford, for instance, to have an animator on staff. I mean, that's just not, that's just not real. That's not realistic today for, for us to do. And so I think it was a nice blend of super committed full-time employees, part-time employees. And then we would cherry pick consultants based on whatever we needed at the time and then grew a really nice real, I mean, we work with some of our consultants for over 20 years at this point in time and it's fantastic. I'm, we've been so blessed with, with employees and decisions we've made about that. And Scorebuilders would be nothing without the, you know, without the, the time and effort that these folks have put in.

One thing I neglect to tell you that I wanted to tell you is Jannah that first year we sold 186 books and I, I, you would, you would have thought that was like the best thing in the world. Like I was so happy. And this is this is how I, I think it's kind of cute, but you know, I'm not sure that that's the right word. But anyways, so I worked up in Portland. I'm still living at home. I knew the mail was put into the post office box around 1:00. My mom would dutifully would go down to the post office box every day. I'd call mom from work mom anything today. And I remember when she's like nothing. I'd be like, I'd be so I'd be so bummed.

I was like a kid at Christmas. It was crazy. And that's Scott big day. We've got 4 envelopes. I feel like you're kidding me. What are they for? You know, and I'd get all excited. So my mom and I still talk about that. But that's, you know, that's, that's how it started. That's how a lot of businesses start, you know, and I mean, I was as happy selling 186 books as 30,000, you know, at that, at that level, my happiness was genuine at that point.

JA: That’s like real humble beginnings. And hey, you printed 100, so you did 86 more than you actually printed.

SG: We got a second printing, and I could afford to pay for it.

JA: That's right. That's right now, you know, like you're talking about the employees. I wanted to stick there for a second because I think that's a that's a tough thing, right? When you start a business and it's just yourself, like we'll use your, your scenario yourself and Traci, how did you get the confidence, I guess, in your own decision making process that I'm hiring the right person, you know, like this is the right person to do what it is that I need. Like you've never, you've never been a boss before, you've never had employees before. How do you feel confident in those decisions?

SG: Yeah, I, I'm not sure. I, I feel that I've always been a pretty good judge of character. And, and, and Traci too. Traci, not much gets by Traci. And so and so. And not to say we've never made employment mistakes. We have, but again, we just got lucky. Like we had good people who were willing to work and who believed in what we were doing. And we're excited to be part of it. And so again, there's a, there's a luck component of this. I mean, I feel we did due diligence as much as you ever can, right? You never know until you get into it, right? So yeah. And then, yeah, I didn't know anything about being a boss, but I knew some bosses that I thought were great bosses and that, you know, did some things that I really liked. And I knew some bosses that I, I really wouldn't want to emulate their style. And, you know, Traci’s the same way. I mean, she's the nicest person. She relates to anyone. And yeah, I don't know, it, it just, it just kind of worked because it's kind of trusting, right? These people are in your house. You're not even at the house. You're out working. And, you know, and then eventually when we had children, you know, when we, you know, when we later had a, a, a much bigger office, actually, we built off of our house and had a much bigger office. I mean, these, you know, we'd have 4 to 8 people in our house on any given day and they'd be in the dedicated office area, but you had to go through the main part of the house to get there. 

SG: I mean, Jannah, it was truly a three-ring circus. The house itself at one point before we moved out of the office within the house with it again, we built off the house, but you know, we could have as many as like 20,000 products in inventory. We were doing all the fulfillment and the shipping OK, which meant we had 18 Wheelers coming to our house to deliver like 10,000 review books at any given point of time. We were doing filming at night. We could have like 4 to 8 cars in our driveway at any point in time. We're not sure if our neighbors thought we were spies. We were running drugs. We were doing it all filming. 

JA: I was just gonna ask, do they absolutely hate you?

SG: You know what? It was so funny because they were the best. They were the absolute best. And when we left, when we left and sold the house and we moved to a different house and we had a permanent, you know, a real business building built 5000 square foot building. We had them over for dinner at the house, our new house. And they were so funny. They're like, oh man, we really miss all the activity. And I'm thinking like, do you like, I doubt it, but but yeah. So I mean, it was such a good setup and we felt good. And at that point, we had three children. It was nice to be home, but it did, you know, I remember my son a few times laying on the couch and someone would walk by and he's and I'd come in the I'd come into the kitchen later and he'd be like Dad, who is that? And, you know, that's just kind of how they grew up and saw it unfold.

JA: That is so that is so fascinating. I love that.

SG: It's pretty jankified.

JA: Yeah. But hey, you made it, right? It's the hustle. It's the hustle. That's the beginning of it. I bet you learned a lot of stuff. I imagine you've learned so much, right. Tell us a little bit about some of the best decisions that you feel like you've made as a business owner.

SG: Yeah. I, I, I we've made some good ones. We've made some bad ones too. But I, but I think I'd say the best decisions is, you know, we kept this as a side hustle for a long time. And so we never really financially leveraged ourselves that if this didn't work out, we were going to be in a, a bad situation. And you kind of know as a physical therapist or physical therapist assistant, you can always get a job. So we knew we could go back. But I like my teaching job so much. I stayed teaching as a full time faculty member until 2007. Now remember we started the business in 1989. So that's a long time while running the business. And at the time, I was teaching as many as 30 two-day courses on the road. So it was, it was a, it was a struggle, but I loved it so much, I didn't want to give it up. And I also felt it was really important to stay current and in the academic environment. And again, the, the, the universe was very supportive of score builders and you know, the, the, the products that we put out, etcetera. And so it was a win-win. But in 2007, I decided it was just, it was too much and that I wanted to focus exclusively on the business and that that provide an impetus for us to really put things, you know, in a little bit more into warp speed, which which was nice.

JA: That's really nice. Now you did say like, well, we've, we've done some mistakes. We all have. We certainly have talked to us about some of those, some of those speed bumps that you encountered. And how do you how do you work through it? Because it's going to happen, right? It's going to happen.

SG: Yeah, No, no doubt. We, we definitely, I mean, one of the mistakes that I think we made is, you know, we, we even though I just said it was, it was a strength. We probably should have diversified a little more, a little earlier and had more employees and maybe given up some things that, that, that, that we were doing at the time because I, I feel that would have freed us up to do more higher-level things. 

Like just to give you one more example of how jankified things were. So when we had early on, we had no money, right? So, when we would do mailings, I would invite family, friends, you name it, over the house and we, we just do these massive mailings or stalking or whatever. And then I, I would, you know, Traci and I would do something like we take everyone to dinner, we go to a play. We do, you know, whatever. So, this is was when I realized we had to stop this. So, we ended up going to this play and it was a Samuel Beckett play. And you know, we're kind of mainstream people. And so this I knew was going to be a little edgy for us. But I and again, these people had all just helped me out for like 5 hours. And so we're in this play and it's the curtain opens and there's this woman buried up for a waste in sand. And by the way, the play’s name is called ‘Happy Days’. And basically this person goes on this monologue about how overwhelmed she is with life. And again, she's, she's literally in a pile of sand. It goes on the entire first act. None of us know what to make of this. And I can't even look at my sister because I thought I was kind of burst out laughing because this is so over our head. And that's just how simple probably I am. And it's probably the greatest play of all time. And I just missed the entire point.

So then we come out after a very lively talk at intermission, and we pull open the curtains pulled open to begin the second act. The person is now on stage by herself, buried up to her neck, in sand. And her story doesn't get any better. You know what I mean? In terms of like how overwhelm. So Jannah, that was when I realized, OK, this is insane. We, we, we have the ability, you know, to be more formalized as part of that. But one of the things that that allowed us to do, even though we stayed with that too long and that was a mistake, is that allowed us to be pretty cost conscious. And we rolled everything we had back into the business and specifically into technology. 

So, when once technology started to really, you know, become a bigger factor because remember back when we first started, the exam was paper and pencil. I mean, literally paper and pencil. I took the exam in a high school gymnasium with, on a weekend with like bells going off to change classes, filling out scantron sheets, right? And then of course, we went to computer testing and, you know, and then we went to image questions and video questions and scenario questions. So, so things, things have evolved over time, but at the time, I mean, that was how that was how basic things were. So, we had to embrace technology in order to build the type of products that would prepare students for the way that the exams have evolved. If we had not been as frugal in our early days, I think we would have been very difficult for us to ramp up as quickly as we did for technology. So, you know, again, good decision, bad decision. The net I think was beneficial to the company.

JA: Yeah, and that's a good point. And I think too, you know, it's hard to give up stuff, right? It's for some people, I should say, like when you're the owner, you're the founder, you're the creator, like it's yours, it's your baby. And some of the things are just difficult to delegate away. You know what that said, what would you say? What would be your advice to, to someone right now who might have something that they've built, they’ve created a business, whatever it is, but they are the one stop shop for it all and they really ought to start to give away some of those things. How do you break away and feel like I can do this, It's OK to give it away and let somebody help me with that.

SG: That's a that's a great question. And I'll tell you what that is. I'm probably the wrong person to ask about that only because I, I've done that most of my career, hung on for things for too long or convinced myself it's just easier if I do it. 

But I think the thing it comes down to for me is where is your time most valuable? You know? So like, for me, that's one of the reasons why I decided to stop at the University of New England because I love both, but I knew that I could commit myself to something that I was more passionate, free up time that was desperately needed, and then bring on people to have the time to recruit people to come on who can do things much better than I can in certain areas. So I think if you always think about the time value of money, you know, is it really worth you doing this task that you could either hire someone else to do, another employee was very qualified to take on, but you just feel that it's critical that you do it. In most cases, it's probably not and it frees you up to higher level activities or even just strategic planning, right? I mean, some of the things that aren't necessarily task driven, they're future driven. But when you're so busy living in the moment, being the chief cook and bottle washer and everything else, you don't even have time to strategically plan. And that holds businesses back. So I, so I wish someone had kind of, I don't know, I mean, someone could have told me that I probably still wouldn't have done it. But if you know, if someone kept on me and, or challenged me as to what, you know, Scott, why are you the person that's doing that? And I will say my wife did that a little bit, but I, I still just probably kept doing it. So, so anyways, but yeah, that, that would have accelerated our business. I feel that will accelerate anyone's business to use yourself at, you know, at your optimal, the things that you're best for you have to be involved with and the other things you got to let go because there's only so much bandwidth.

JA: Yes, I think that is perfectly said. Perfectly said. Scott, tell us some of the things that you would say have been your favorites of being an entrepreneur and the things that you least like in being an entrepreneur. 

SG: You know what, I just love kind of calling my own shots and I just love that at the end of the day, I'm kind of responsible for like how the organization like it. Like if I, if I do a poor job, either in hiring, I put poor work out, I hire people that don't do a good job. It's kind of on me. But conversely, if it works, then I can be part of a team that reaches these outcomes and everyone feels good and it's exciting and people are fired up and we see our sales grow and we get great feedback from customers. So I like having, I like having control of kind of those situations. I'm also kind of a competitive guy. So I like when I go to a conference and I see other companies, you know, doing the same stuff that we do. Like I just walk around and it gets me fired up. And so I, I like the fact that I have ownership and that kind of, I'm responsible at some level at the end of the day for, for kind of what comes out, obviously in collaboration with the team or nothing without the team. But I like that part of being an entrepreneur a lot that I feel I'm, I'm vested fully. 

On the downside, man. It's a lot of work. And it does become exhausting at times. And in our industry as well, where we're so tech dependent. Now, for instance, if we have a tech issue, like it is chaos because, you know, people want to study when they want to study, when they're available. This is, this is a high stakes examination. And so I, you know, I really take it and we have a fantastic tech team, really blessed. That was one of the greatest thing to happen to our company is to connect with MainStreet Computing. But like any tech, you're going to have issues. The other thing, Jannah, is, I mean, we could be on vacation. It's midnight and I'll get a call from an instructor who's supposed to teach, for instance, in Chicago and they're leaving Boston and they've been sitting on the tarmac for four hours and they just determined they're not getting there. They cancelled their flight. So I have this instructor teaching a 2 day course in front of 70 people and the instructor is not going to get in. And now we have to start the contingency planning, you know, so you're never really off. And again, I love it. Like I kind of get energy from all this. I don't love that though, and I don't love tech issues. So again, I like that you have kind of control. I don't like that. If you have control, you're kind of responsible to clean up the mess. And, you know, messes happen.

JA: Yeah. And it happens and it's true. And you said it. When you work for yourself, you are always on. Like you are always on.

SG: Yeah,

JA: So what's the future for Scorebuilders? I mean, we're up to, we said 30,000 products. Scorebuilders is a wonderful anchor in this PT/PTA space and helping students achieve their their licensure and move on and do great things in their career. What's next?

SG: Well, there's, I know some people are aware of this. We've certainly publicized it, but I don't, I don't know how many people are, are that tuned into an announcement like this. But in 2023 we sold Scorebuilders to the Colibri Group. The Colibri Group is a very large educational company out of Saint Louis and we did it for two reasons primarily.

The first is that we felt that our learning, learning management system at Scorebuilders and the products that we had developed that many of them this the infrastructure is fantastic. And that we felt like, why when we've spent all the time, effort and money to build out these really cool learning platforms, why are we only dealing with physical therapy? Like I'm, I believe nursing and nurse practitioners and some of the other groups would benefit from some of the really cool things we've done because we've done some great things. But conversely, we wanted to tap in to the other great things that these like companies have done to advance Scorebuilders. So I just felt like it was that we're at the point we had to step out, like almost like we've taken it as far as it can go. And if we want to go further, we've got to go bigger and we've got to get with bigger horses, so to speak. And Colibri provided that for us because they have a very robust healthcare division, which of course, you know, you're part of. And that's super exciting for us. The other thing is Jannah, Traci and I are pushing 60, you know, 58.

JA: You don’t look it

SG: Yeah, Hello. That you better check your resolution on that. But, you know, working 60, 70, 80 hours a week is not, it's not conducive to that. We have a couple grandchildren now. And so like, I want to stay involved. I'm going to stay involved. But to not handle those midnight calls to, not to have other people involved in strategic planning to, to, to tap into some of these tremendous resources that Colibri has to offer. Like that was so exciting to us. And that's ultimately why.

So I think what consumers are going to see over the next couple years is we're going to continue to roll out maybe well, actually there will be a new product, but there will also be meaningful product enhancements that occur along the way that that we believe students will benefit from. These podcasts are one example of that, right? We probably would not be doing this if we were under the Scorebuilders umbrella ourselves with, with running it, because A. I wouldn't have thought of it or B. I would have thought I, you know, maybe didn't have the technology or the ability to do this. And this is something that, you know, obviously, you know, Colibri has done in many of the different areas and it I think it's an exciting opportunity. And this isn't even licensing driven, right? We're just trying to serve people in other ways to think about their career after their license. And that's super exciting for me as well. So I think, I think the future will be driven by Colibri. I think we're super well positioned. We, we had a lot of interested people in Scorebuilders and we picked the company that we felt would carry on, you know, the legacy for what we've been doing for, you know, over three decades. So, and we're we feel great about it today and I feel great about the future.

JA: That's awesome and we're and we're so happy to have you. One of the things I love and you mentioned is, you know, in the real world, when I say real world, I mean all of us clinicians walking around the hospital or the clinic, we all work together. We all collaborate together on the same patient or patients and it is just this family, right? We're just this family of providers. And so I love that we can do the same thing on the other end of things when we're providing education and we collaborate together in that way. Because you're right, what happens in the PT world is relevant to me in nursing world and vice versa. So that collaboration and really getting together and gelling as one, I love it. It's fantastic.

SG: No, I agree. And the efficiency in which you can move when you're not, you know, starting from scratch with every part, you know, like, why, why are you putting together a, you know, a widget in, in a certain way when widgets? Here's the best example. So when, when we gave, when we decided that the deal was closed and we're going to announce it to our, you know, our, all our different stakeholders, you know, faculty, students, our instructors, you know, we have 43 instructors that teach our courses, etcetera. And obviously all this, you know, about the sale could not be public until it was actually closed. I got a call from I was in a meeting. We're talking about how we're going to communicate this. And, you know, of course I'm thinking, yeah, I'm going to write a letter to all these different people, customize the letter and the comment that someone said, I think it might have been my direct boss, Yazir, said, would you like the communications department to help you with the letter? And I'm like a communications department. That's beautiful. Are you kidding me? And then I'm like, oh, this is a good decision. This is a really good decision.

So anyways, but yeah, you should see my eyes light up. I was like, what?

JA: That is so funny. OK, well, I have a question for you that it's kind of a little inspo. We're taking a little inspo from actually a podcast, a popular NPR podcast. So question is when reflecting on your business activity, right? How much of your success do you attribute to just luck? And you've said, you know, we've been lucky a couple times. So how much do you attribute to luck and how much do you attribute to this was just hard work and I've made some really smart, intelligent decisions.

SG: Yeah, I, I love that question. I love that, that podcast, It's so good. I would encourage any aspiring entrepreneur to listen to this podcast. It's really wonderful. I think that anyone who doesn't admit it's both is just I never believe anyone who says it's not both. And if and if you say it's. And usually what I mean is if someone says it's all hard work and intelligence and you know, I, I don't, I don't believe that you have to get lucky. I was so lucky to have the idea or to fall into something where there wasn't an existing market, where there wasn't a product that was already superior or dominated by big players. And that provided us with the opportunity. So there's, there's no question that that was, that was lucky. We were lucky to hire great people who had a similar passion that could move kind of our, our mission forward. I mean, I'm sorry, you can do all the diligence you want. There's some luck associated with that. We connected with good people and those good people did a fantastic job. There's still doing a fantastic job for us.

There is no question also, though, that, you know, the intelligence card is not going to be played because I'm, you know, I'm lucky if I'm, you know, marginally intelligent as the average person, but the hard working card I can grind and Traci can grind and we did that and I think that's a great example for, you know, for our employees, for our children who have seen what we've put into this business and how we work, the work ethic that we put in. So it's clearly a mix. But if we did, if we were not fortunate and we're not bestowed some luck along the way, this would have never happened.

JA: Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. That's, that's fair. Now, one of the things that I like to do for all of our podcasts is end with like advice, right? Like any words of wisdom. And I have a little case study here, right? And so I think this applies to probably a lot of our listeners. So Matt, let's, we're going to call this guy Matt, right? He's an exhausted recent grad from a physical therapy program, said no physical therapy student ever who was exhausted, right? 

JA: He has long dreamed about becoming an entrepreneur, right? But his current indebtedness, we know what that's like in mental fatigue. We know what that's like. It makes this goal seem really, really far away. And Matt believes that all good business ideas have already been taken, right? He probably sees all the things that are happening in the world right now and the competitiveness in the marketplace. It's going to make his pursuit of any business pretty unlikely. What would you say to this this listener, this Matt right now, 

SG: I think the first thing I do is give Matt a hug. Like, Matt sounds like he's not in a great place, but Matt is in the place. That is pretty much how it is. After you get out of physical therapy school, you're exhausted. You have no funds. You're entering the working world. I mean, look. So Matt. Well, first thing I say, Matt, you got to saddle up, OK? Like, take a moment. Like this is real. This is not unique, OK? And become the best clinician you can be. Do everything you can to differentiate yourself as a clinician from that of your fellow, you know, the individuals you're working with. Because my belief is that if you have strong clinical skills and you distinguish yourself and you develop a network of whether it's providers, you know, for there's physicians or other physical therapists, or ideally you have a mentor or several mentors that can move your thinking along. That's the key. Because when you distinguish yourself, you will see windows and doors open, even if it's a crack. And there are opportunities that exist on the other side of that. 

I would beg to differ with Matt. I think there are more opportunities for entrepreneurial pursuits today than there were ever when I graduated from school. Because I mean, think about all the concierge, you know, services that we're seeing in healthcare these days. Think about there's fewer barriers to entry because of social media and digital marketing. And you know, so Matt, consider yourself an entrepreneur, even if initially no one's, it doesn't usually our situation was kind of weird, right? We, I just stumbled on this thing early and we kind of got into it, but it was a slow build, like a slow build over time. So don't expect success right away. Control what you can control. Surround yourself with great people. Always consider yourself to be an entrepreneur and then look for that opportunity. And when that opportunity comes, you know, don't, don't be naive. I mean, conduct a thorough analysis, but believe that in all probability you had the skills to pull this off. So I see a bright future for Matt. It's hard to see that future right away when we're dealing with indebtedness and you know, the other things that we deal with in the physical therapy market.

Just as a bit of a teaser, by the way, we have someone who has been out of PT school five years named Connor Pierce, who has a company called After the DPT and his entire company is based on students making wise decisions about student loan repayment. So look, the reality is that most students do have student loans. But I'm telling you, there are some things you I was, I didn't know about a lot of these options with federal loans that you have, but that's going to be coming up. But think about that as an entrepreneurial pursuit. This person's a physical therapist was practicing, became was running a clinic and had this as a side hustle and eventually has transitioned into this being this person's full time opportunity. So no one would ever think as a physical therapist would go into advising students about student loans. My point is there are entrepreneurial pursuits everywhere that are just waiting to be dusted off and discovered. And you find what you're passionate about. And I'll tell you what, it's going to help with your career. It's going to diminish burnout. And in many cases, it can also provide, you know, secondary income, which quite frankly, you know, is needed in physical therapy because most people's debt structure when you leave. 

But most of all, I think the satisfaction that most entrepreneurs get from those pursuits is just off the charts. And that's and that's, that's more meaningful than money, clearly.

JA: Yeah, that's fantastic. And I, and I love that. And I and I hear you see a void fill it. Like you are equipped to do that. You are equipped to do that. And Matt, you are equipped to do that. Those that are listening in and tuning into this, you can do that. And that's very exciting. And I, I love a good startup story and I love a good story of our healthcare, you know, clinicians getting out there and filling these voids, right. And doing more than what we even imagined we could do. So this has been fantastic.

JA: Scott, Thank you so much for inviting me on to do this. This has been so fun and so exciting.

SG: I appreciate it. Jannah, you were great. And I'm sorry, I, I know I went over our kind of prescribed time, but I can find out about this stuff. And I just feel such a great example for students. Again, I bring nothing special to the table and, and this is kind of what happened. And I just want students to believe in themselves and see opportunities down the road because they're plentiful. So thank, thanks so much. I really appreciate your guidance and serving as host today.

JA: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for inviting me. Thanks for everyone who's tuning in and listening to this episode. We really hope that you enjoyed it. You listen to some more and if you're feeling motivated, you have ideas, you're seeing something that needs to be filled. You are well, well, well equipped to do that. Thanks for joining us today.

Voiceover: And there you have it. Another dose of PT-prenurial inspiration to fuel your journey. Check out more inspiring stories from PTs and PTAs out there making waves by listening and subscribing to our podcasts on your favorite streaming platforms. And don't forget to rate and review this podcast. Thanks for listening

Check out the video version of this episode on YouTube - https://youtu.be/heQP-MwSQCw