Episode 2: Connor Pierce – After the DPT

Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube - https://youtu.be/9xHr2CLHHas

In this episode of Innovate and Rehabilitate: The Entrepreneurial PT, Connor Pierce discusses his journey from confronting significant student debt to founding After the DPT (www.afterthedpt.com). With experience consulting on over $45 million in student loans, Connor offers crucial advice on managing student debt and saving money. Tune in to learn how you can take control of your financial future.

Voiceover: So you're a PT or PTA grad who's feeling the spark of something more. Maybe you dream of building your own business, one that's constructed around your vision, one that empowers you to make a real difference on your terms. This feeling, it's the entrepreneurial itch. And you're not alone. Countless PTs and PTAs are taking the leap to entrepreneurship, crafting careers that are as unique as they are. 

Welcome to the Innovate and Rehabilitate the Entrepreneurial PT podcast. In each episode, we'll dive deep into the world of PT-preneurship with Inspiring physical therapists and physical therapist assistants just like you, who are crushing it on their terms. We'll uncover their secrets, their struggles, and the incredible impact they're making. From building your PT boss dreams to navigating the business side of things, will equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to turn your vision into reality.

So, whether you're just curious about starting your own business, or you're already out there making your dreams a reality, this podcast is for you. Get ready to unleash your inner entrepreneur. Let's do this!

Scott Giles (SG): My name is Scott Giles. I'm the founder of Scorebuilders and your host for today's podcast. I want to send a special welcome to today's guest, Connor Pierce. Connor is the founder of a company called After the DPT. The company's purpose is to assist physical therapy students with their student loans. To date, Connor has consulted on over $45 million in student debt and has assisted hundreds of therapists to make informed student loan decisions.

I had the opportunity to meet Connor and his wife, Hannah, at the Education and Leadership Conference, and was immediately impressed with the business concept and their obvious commitment to helping students. Connor, welcome to the podcast.

Connor Pierce (CP): Hey, thanks Scott and I appreciate you having me. 

SG: For sure. I've been excited about this because I believe that student debt is a massive problem facing our profession. And prior to kind of our discussions leading up to this podcast, my general sense was the only variable that students could influence was the length of the repayment term.

But what I've realized through this process is, is I was very mistaken. There are a number of active strategies that students can employ that can improve significantly improve their debt structure. But before we get more into student debt or to the structure of your business, I want to find out how you how you happen to become a physical therapist. What made that that career decision?

CP: Yeah. And, and that's a, that's a great place to start because for most physical therapists, you know, you got injured or something led to PT and then you picked up the debt and then you have to figure out what to do with the debt. So yeah, for me, probably not unlike many other folks who got into PT, it started with injury and a personal, you know, PT story.

So I was a sophomore in high school. I played football and basketball through high school and I hurt my back. It was our our last week of three a day practices and like the scorching heat right back when they used to do 3A day practices.

So anyway, I, I got hurt. I hurt my back. It was weird 'cause I never had back pain before. Long story short, I ended up seeing an orthopedic surgeon and he recommended a fusion. So 15 year old gets recommended a fusion without any prompt for PT. So fortunately my mom was in the room and she was savvy enough to say hey you know let's get a second opinion before you hop in at 15 years old and get a fusion at L5 S1. So fortunately, you know, we went to another surgeon. He said, well, yes, you have a spondee, let's go ahead and try some PT before we do that fusion and changed my life. I went pain free after like six weeks of PT. I missed that football season when I was a sophomore, right? Probably wasn't going to play much anyway. And yeah.

And then afterwards, you know, I was able to play basketball and football and ultimately went on to play both of those sports, Division Three at Lebanon Valley College where I went to school. So that's why I got into PT personal, changed my life and I love helping people, you know, surgeries.

SG: That is terrifying. Recommending a, a, you know, a fusion for someone at at that age without, I mean, regardless of what the symptoms were at that point, that seems incredibly aggressive. Yeah. That makes me question if there was a boat payment due or something like that for the orthopedic surgeon. I mean, that is insane.

So anyways, glad you avoid. Glad you avoided that. All right, so now fast forward, you're in physical therapy school. Tell me about what happens post graduation.

CP: Yeah, so post graduation and, and if I actually even take a couple steps back. So my wife, who's also a DPT, her name is Hannah. We actually got married while we're in PT school. So after our first traditional year of Graduate School, so we were in a 3 + 3 program. We've been dating. We decided, hey, we want to get married and, and guess what comes up when you talk about marriage finances and guess what comes up when your DPTs who want to get married? Student loans. So anyway, it's started the conversation there and got really interested in saying like, hey, we have to figure out our situation. We don't have much now we're living off of our parents blessing and student loans and we're going to continue to accrue student loans over the next two years if we get married. 

So for me that was a big like debate, like do we get married now? Do we wait till after school? And, you know, fortunately our parents supported us and, and said, hey, why don't you get married now if you really want to, rather than later. And again, that was life changing. But still had to figure out the student debt.

SG: Yeah, that, that that's super interesting. And Connor, by the way, you know, my wife and I were PT romance and, and, and it's worked out really great. I know it's worked out great for you and Hannah as well. So I always have a soft spot for those PT couples. I used to ask that at when I was out teaching these two-day courses, like do we have any PT couples in the room? And sometimes like people would just kind of look at someone and they kind of look like maybe it didn't really go well. So I, I kind of, I stopped that activity after a while, but, but anyway, so now look OK at that point then. So you like, that's pretty mature because I'll tell you how it work with my student loans. You know, I took the loans. I really wasn't thinking about repayment terms at all until pretty much I graduated. And then I was like absolutely panicking. So good for you guys for being so mature, or maybe that came with marriage or whatever. But you guys made that decision.

Were you, were you even thinking at that point that there could be any opportunity where you might really go deep on this and maybe even turn it into a business? Did that, did that seed get planted even before you graduated?

CP: You know, I, I don't think it did, frankly, it was just, hey, this is a personal problem. We have to figure this out for us. And you know, of course you, you get interested in something. And I had always been interested in finances, but like didn't know any of the technical stuff, didn't know like what to do. I just knew, hey, this is super important. The sooner you know, the better off you do. And the cool thing with finances and student loans is it literally takes no extra time. You just know what to click. Like once you know it, you know it and you know where to invest, how to save on taxes, how to save, and it's like no extra time investment.

So, I was interested, but then it like really came to fruition 2 years later when we're sitting in the room and the financial aid department came in and said, hey, everybody log on. You know, you log in and it's a requirement. It's called exit counseling, where you have to select your repayment plan. And, you know, right now there's eleven different repayment plans for federal student loans. So a lot of decisions to be made, right. And, and we knew exactly what we were going to pick and why we're going to pick it and how we're going to attack it. And classmates, like some friends were like, how did you know, like what you were doing there 'cause it was like a 30 minute session mostly just did everybody pick? There was no education piece. It was just you have to pick something.

SG: With 11 options?

CP: Yeah. So we just started to like kind of help some friends say like, hey, here's why we did this, like, and realizing like we didn't get any education on this in school. So just started helping some friends that turned to helping some colleagues that eventually led to, you know, lecturing at my alma mater saying, hey, you know, here's some things you should know, which led to lecturing at more universities, helping DPT students. And that ultimately turned into like an online course where people could just take a self-paced course to say, I know nothing because you get pretty much nothing in PT school. Maybe like a one off lecture of like, hey, by the way, your finances is going to affect you and so is student debt and then just kind of takes you the whole way to understanding all the different options so you can make the best decision for yourself.

SG: No, I think it makes a lot of sense. I'd like to say things have improved a lot since you've been, since you've graduated in terms of the educational experience that comes with selecting whatever number of plans there are today. But I don't really think it has. I think in part because, you know, folks are good intentions, but the reality is most faculty, and certainly I would say this about myself, I, I hadn't, I didn't have any background in it. And I'm not even sure, I'm not even sure I viewed it as my responsibility, although in retrospect, I probably should have had some knowledge about it. And it probably was just part of being a good faculty member, caring about your students and wanting to help them, you know, make wise financial decisions not unlike a parent would do, right? When I mean, I remember my dad saying incredibly early, like they just drilled into a Scott, you have to maximally contribute to your 401K. You're not going to miss it. You know, have it taken directly out of your deposit. You have to capitalize on the match. If people didn't tell me those kind of things, I would have made different financial decisions and and I would envision it being the exact same with student debt. So that that that makes a lot of sense.
Okay. So you did take a job, though, after graduation in a traditional employment setting. Tell me about tell me about that.

CP: Yeah. So I, I was fortunate. I had an awesome last clinical rotation. It was with an outpatient orthopaedic practice and you know, I was with them for 16 weeks and they offered me a job about halfway through and just had everything that I wanted in a job. You know, it had like great mentorship, really smart people around me. So I knew that I would really elevate my game as a clinician. So and it was also kind of that entrepreneurial mindset. It was a private practice. They kind of did things differently. They had to think more creatively and I knew, you know, going into it, I was not just going to learn PT, but I was also going to learn, you know, some of the business side, which I kind of shared is a major interest of mine. So I was like, this is a perfect fit. And it was pretty much a no brainer to say, yeah, I want to continue to work here.

SG: And okay, so now you're starting to work there. And if I remember our early discussion, you actually had the opportunity to open an additional clinic that you were responsible for. Is that true?

CP: Yeah, that's right. So I was there for a little less than five years. So kind of like definitely gradually built up was a staff PT got some more responsibility along the way and yeah, then they trusted me to to open a brand new de Novo clinic. So yeah, learned a ton throughout the process. It was a longer process than expected, but yeah, learned a ton about like doing the market research and, and figuring it out. And, and again, just had some really great mentors going through that process to kind of hire some people and, and do some of those different tasks too that that not everyone gets to do as a PT.

SG: So while you're doing this, you're still working on the side hustle, right? With the student loan piece. And you had one child, maybe two children shortly thereafter, correct? How are you balancing all these things, Connor? That, that that's a lot. You got a lot going on.

CP: That that has been a challenge my whole life of like maybe putting too much on the plate, saying yes to too many opportunities because it's just, I don't know, life's awesome. Like it's exciting. There's so many different things you can do. It's like literally open possibilities. That's part of the reason I called it after the DPT. It's like you're literally told, here's the class you need to take, here's the grade you need to get, here's the clinical rotations and you're kind of like ever since kindergarten, really, you're told exactly what you need to do and how to do it. And then you get your DPT, you graduate, you're after the DPT and literally the world is everything like a really popular area right now is nonclinical PT role.

So like, hey, I've worked in the clinic, like what else is out there? And the really cool thing is the PT degree in the clinical decision making, we learn and the skills of talking to people and building rapport and just like, you know, connecting with people translates to everything. So anyway, it was kind of like always a mission of like, you know, how do I learn all these different skills that can translate to everything?

SG: So that's, I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right. You're absolutely right. I mean, there is tons of structure in our life at all times. Then all of a sudden you kind of, I guess after college, when you get into the, you know, the working world, so to speak, it, it is, you know, you kind of pull back the curtain and it is a whole new world.

So how at what point did you decide this, this is going to, this is going to be my thing and I'm willing to leave my clinical life at this point in time in order to try to help students with this student debt problem.

CP: Yeah. So it, and again, to kind of answer that original question, it was side hustle for a while. I think I maybe officially I graduated in 2018 and was just kind of helping people on the side. I guess I officially made after the DPT in 2020. So January of 2020, I remember because it was pre pandemic and it was like, hey, like I'm just going to start a Facebook group and, and try and put some finance tips in there, you know, help some friends, some colleagues. So I can't help everybody one-on-one, right? I don't have time. And then it, yeah, kind of spurred on to, you know, bigger conversations about, hey, I don't have enough time to do this and take all the con-ed. You know.

I was actually accepted into a fellowship program. And that was like a competing interest of like, you know, I want to spend time with family. We had my daughter Lucy, who's now three years old. I want to, you know, move on and be a good clinician and fellow. I want to open this clinic and I also want to do after the DPT. And I realized like, I can't juggle all of these and give them my all. So I decided to actually drop out of the fellowship and kind of with the mindset of all the time that I would have been spending studying there, I'm going to start putting it into After the DPT. So it was still kind of that side hustle.

And then eventually in 2023, I made the leap to say, Hey, I'm going to jump into this full time and say, let's go for it. You know, I, I can always go back to clinical practice. And that decision was, was growing, quite frankly, to say, I've worked so hard to get this degree, to take some con-ed and get some extra manual therapy certifications and, and I truly enjoyed it. But this is my true passion. And I feel like I can make a big splash and just help so many DPTS with something that maybe less people know about.

SG: Connor, do you take a lot of heat for that? Because, you know, I could imagine some people being like Connor, come on, you've only been out five years. You're what about your clinical skills? Are you wasting your degree? Maybe your parents might have had some thoughts about that. You're obviously this was a, you know, something you discussed at length with Hannah. So I assume she was very on board. But tell me about that. Did you, what did you catch any?

CP: So I wouldn't say I caught any like grief and yeah, Hannah #1 supporter. She actually helps a lot with the business too. And it's funny, she hates finances. So she does all the back end stuff. But I mean, she's my number one supporter and everything really and the business as well. And just said like, Hey, you know, like I want to support you if this is the route you want to go. But the biggest push back I would say was probably my parents, which which makes sense, right? Your parents are always trying to protect you and I have amazing parents and and loving and supportive all those things. But it was like when I brought up the idea, like in a series context, it was like, wait, what? You're not you're not going to do PT. You just got a PT degree. You still have student debt and so does Hannah from PT, but you're going to go a different route.
And yeah, so they may be warmed up to it over time and, and maybe still are, but I, I think just that perception too of, yeah, like, well, you didn't need a DPT degree to do what you're doing now. And, and we could talk like finance concepts, right? And opportunity cost of like, you know, or sunk costs, right? Of like, well, what is the sunk cost of, well, I can still do whatever I want for the rest of my life. I'm, I just turned 30, so I'm not that old yet.

SG: And, you know, and people step out all the time, right? I mean, some people step out, you know, the, the husband and wife steps out for five years in order to you, you know, take care of their children, raise their kids and then the kids go back to school, you know, go to school for the first time or whatever it may be. And then people jump back into the workforce. So it's it's never final, but I can understand, especially from maybe a different generation where that's that's concerning or, or just, you know, it's risky, right at some level, but it's not it's not permanent. And you recognize that.

So paint for me, Connor, tell me about the problem. What is give me paint a picture of the present student debt in physical therapy.

CP: Yeah, and bleak maybe might be the right word. I don't know. That's a great word.

SG: Just on that, one of my questions I was going to ask you is, Connor, do you like sad movies or happy movies? And my money was on sad because, I mean.

CP: Come on, man, come on.

SG: Well, it's just a little sad, right? It was sad for me when I got out of school and I had so much debt, But at the same time it's, it's, I guess I, I started thinking about it more and I decided not to ask that question. But of course then I brought it up. But, but I, but I decided kind of not to originally ask it because I started thinking about it. Well, isn't it like a patient who comes to you with, with impairment and pathology and you're going to work with them, to them to improve their status? So yes, hey, look, anyone with student debt, it's not by choice, right? But it, it was a means to an end and now you're assisting them. So in essence, I'm thinking like, even if it's initially a sad movie, you're making it much happier through the through this process. But tell me, how bad is the student debt situation in physical therapy?

CP: So to put on the record, I, I hate sad movies. I don't want to watch them. Like life is sad enough at times on its own. Like I don't need to go get sad from a movie. Like one time they showed Marley and me. Have you seen that movie?

SG: Yeah. With Owen Wilson.

CP: I was on a plane when I first saw that movie and we had a golden retriever. Not not good, not a good choice for a plane movie. I'm like, terrible. I'm like trying to hide because I'm getting teared up. But anyway, don't like sad movies. I like the stupid funny movies, yeah, the dumb and dumbers, but yeah, but now people are like this guys really weird.

But but yeah, to your point, the outlook is not great. And again, like I'm a PT so I looked at the research. What does the research have to say on student debt and physical therapy? And again, it's not a a pretty picture. It says student debt, you know, like 80 plus percent of people, you know, feel like student debt, they didn't get enough education in school. Over 80% think their salary is not enough to support, you know, their student debt payments and their lifestyle. Over 50% of DPTS, like new grads said it will affect their job setting choice. So now you've got all these people working really hard to get this degree. They're really smart and they're saying, I'm going to go take that job that pays me a little bit more because I have a student debt back here and I have to handle that. 

So no wonder there's burnout. No wonder there's different things affecting our profession when people don't understand the options for their student loans, which I know we're going to get a chance to talk about. And you know, it, it is kind of a not great picture because tuition is outpacing all sorts of inflation as far as like the price that's going up every year for, for DPT students. So some of the stats from 2020, if you actually want to know the numbers, the APTA did a, a released of research study said you know out of nine out of 10 DPTS have student debt and out of the 9 out of 10, the average debt load is about 153K. So that's a significant amount of debt when you exclude the one out of 10 who has no debt at all. So out of that, has that gotten better since 2020? That was four years ago now the research is always behind, right? So it's obviously gotten worse because tuition prices have gone up every single year. 
So the picture is not great. If you look at it, you know, from just an overall, how much debt are people taking standpoint? But there are some cool programs available. And that's the one thing that has changed over the past four or five years is the student loan world has changed a lot as far as the roles and the different programs and how you ultimately want to pay off your debt is different than it than it ever has been.

SG: Yeah, let's talk about that because I, I didn't know, you know, I, I wasn't even aware, Obviously I knew there was some federally funded loans. I know there's the private market and but it seems like there are a lot of programs on the federal side where you can do some things that can significantly help your situation. It just was strategic and it's and it's extremely appropriate. You're playing by the rules, but you've got to know the rules to even consider, you know, using that as strategy.

So give us a few examples, kind of paint a picture that I want. I want you to convince people you've already convinced me, but I want you to convince people that there are some things that you can do and there are some programs that are available not just to a select few, but to many. So tell us a few kind of either scenarios or just speak generally about how you can influence your debt structure.

CP: Yeah, absolutely. And, and to kind of like take a step back, just like you said. So federal student debt is its own animal. It's totally unique. It's complicated to a degree and every other type of debt, if you have private student loans or you have a mortgage or you have a car payment or credit card debt, all of those are kind of in its own category. So when we talk about federal student debt specifically, which is what the vast majority of DPTs have, and it's usually the vast majority of the balance as well, especially when we talk about grad school, there's some really amazing opportunities to go for things like loan forgiveness, to go for things like using something called an income driven repayment plan where your payment amount is actually based off your income and not based off how much debt you have and how long you take to pay it off. And by utilizing some of these programs and also just like I said, the way the government wrote the rolls and all these different programs, you can actually take advantage. 

I worked with a, do one-on-one consults and I actually worked with the DPT. She's about to graduate in August this morning. And you know, working with her, she was able to, you know, I was able to show her a strategy that that any new grad can do. And she's going to have a $0.00 payment. It's going to save her $14,000 in interest just the first year. That would typically be working against her, but the government is going to subsidize it just because she now understands the role. And the crazy part is she's actually going to be able to use that strategy for her first two years. So just from having like a one hour call, she's going to save $28,000 in interest that would typically be working against her, you know, her first two years out of school, which talk about opening up a little bit of cash flow and breathing room. That's a recency bias. But that's literally a call I had this morning.

SG: So Connor, you got to help me on that because if I'm sitting here listening to this, I'm thinking, OK, Connor, $0.00 payment for, you know, two years. Aren't I just extending my loan repayment period forever? Aren't I just accruing more interest? Like, like you drill down on that a little bit for me and you did this for me earlier and I thought it was super helpful.

CP: Yeah, it, it almost feels like I'm selling a scam. Sometimes when I tell people this, it's like, you can save this much money and it's like, I feel like I should be on late night TV like an infomercial and be like, you can cut a penny with this knife and like, and but this is a real program. I can literally give you the link on the government website where it shows you how it works and then how to take advantage of it. But yeah, to kind of drill down on that. Essentially the way it works is if you pay based off your income when you're a student, you typically don't have a whole lot of income. So as a student, if you have a low income, you're going to use that to certify your income, which is a requirement in these income driven repayment plans. So if your income was 0 or close to 0, or really if you're single below like $33,000 the year, you know before you graduate, you can use that income to certify your payment. And the way the calculation works is it takes a percentage of your income and then to get more in depth, it takes a deduction of the poverty line. And again, the calculation works out to say, you know, you'd have a $0.00 payment. And one of the newer plans, the government will subsidized everything beyond that $0.00 payment. So essentially the interest that would typically be working against you. And, and when you look at your loan balance when you graduate, you'll see interest has accumulated there. It's like, oh man, like I didn't know these were growing while I was in school. So it's essentially even a better situation than while you're in school and you're not required to make payments because you're required to make a $0.00 payment and the government will help you out with that interest.

SG: So, and just to be clear, the reason that the payment is 0 is because you're basing that on your final year when you were a student, not after you've already successfully had employment and are and are making a, you know, a living wage. Is that correct?

CP: Correct. Yeah. So the optimal time to take advantage of this strategy is really right after you graduate. And there's really two different ways you can do it. You can do it right before you got a job because your income is technically zero at that moment. Or you can even use the previous year's tax return, which is one way to certify your income. And there's a couple different ways to certify your income, but that's consensually the strategy you use. 
And yeah, this isn't a forever strategy. This isn't a I'm going to pay $0.00 for the rest of my life because eventually you will be making money. Your tax return is going to reflect the money you made. But depending on when you graduate, one to two years of no interest working against you and, and just picture this strategy. So now instead of paying like for this girl, the amount of interest that was collecting per month was about $1200. So she would have had to pay more than $1200 that month to even knock down the balance at all. But instead, she can kind of save and pay herself and build up a little bit of savings to have some breathing room. And then if she chooses, you know, hey, I'm going to start attacking my debt. She'll have a little bit of a head start there or potentially, which is actually a really good option for a lot of DPTs. She can kind of continue on this track towards getting her loans potentially forgiven, which is a whole other can of worms. If we want to go down that route.

SG: Give me a little, give me a little sample on that because I, I think it's important for us to spend some of our time with these tangible stories like this. And the other thing I would like you to discuss, by the way, if you don't mind, is you told me about a couple of sad stories where that sadness came from someone being uninformed in terms of they, you know, they, they took federal loans, they consolidated loans on the private market, and then all of a sudden we're ineligible for many of these wonderful programs. So if you could just touch on that a little bit as well.

CP: Yeah. So when I started getting, I guess, serious about doing student loan consulting again, I was kind of doing it on the side and I said, hey, I'm going to make the leap. Actually, one of the first clients that I I saw was a PT and she had just graduated, it was like 2 years before and you know, she graduated into the pandemic, so she wasn't required to make any student loan payments. So she, she saved all this money on the side. She saved up over $50,000 and then she scheduled the consult. It was actually her and her parents on the call saying hey you know we want to figure out what the best plan was. Two weeks before the consult with me they made a $50,000 lump sum payment at the loans. So took a huge chunk. Literally like the equivalent after tax of one year of her PT salary because she made about 70,000 as a new grad. She saved it all up living with her parents, threw it all at the loans, and then she two weeks later meets with me and says OK what's the best plan? Turns out she should have been going for loan forgiveness.
And when you go for loan forgiveness, the goal is to pay as little towards your loans over a period of time, usually either 10 or potentially 20 to 25 years of time, and then get the rest forgiven by the government. So we ran the numbers after she made this $50,000 lump sum payment and she should have went for forgiveness even still. So she really should have gone for forgiveness before, but she couldn't get that $50,000 back. And the really sad part was we're on the call and we have to break the news to her and just say, hey, you shouldn't have done that. Because it's kind of our responsibility to say like, it's just like a patient, like, hey, you probably shouldn't have done that thing that re-tore your shoulder because it was too soon. And we told you that.

But anyway, she unfortunately didn't know. So she made that payment and she should have been going for loan forgiveness. So super sad that she couldn't get the money back. And, and she wanted to move out and her parents agreed. Yeah, we kind of want her to move out too. And she had like $2000 in her bank account, so she couldn't even get like an apartment. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that breaks my heart. If someone could have told her this just a few weeks sooner or best yet, right before she graduated, it could have totally changed, changed her life, you know?

SG: So what, just to be clear, was she paying off? She was, she was putting this 50,000 towards her federal loans? Or is this a case where she was repositioning some of her loans from the federal to the private market? 

CP: So in this case her loans actually were still federal, but she took that lump sum and threw them all at her federal loans. So the worst case scenario would have been if she did that and she also refinanced them 'cause then she would have lost the ability for any type of loan forgiveness.

SG: Meaning refinance in the private sector, right? 

CP: And, and just a clarification on like if we're talking language, right? So consolidation and refinancing, 2 very different things. When you refinance your loans, you take them from the federal system to the private system, or if they're already private, you can refinance them with another private company. So that's refinancing. And the goal with that is you're trying to get a better interest rate, so there's less, you know, interest working against you. Consolidation. And consolidation is actually done through the federal government. So there's something called a direct consolidation loan and you just mash all of of your federal loans together into one loan and you get a weighted average. So you don't get a better interest rate. They actually round you up to a 1/8 of a percent. So it's slightly worse.

But, and again, that's an option where if you're going to make that decision, the good news is if you consolidate, they stay federal and you still get all the federal benefits. And in certain cases that can be a good strategy, but other times it doesn't make sense to do that.

SG: I mean, with any financial planning, right? I mean, you kind of you need some level of education in order to make an informed decision. And you know, look, I graduated from school, I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I just, you know, picked a term like I said and, and send in my check as long as I could for like 10 years and eventually repaid it. So yeah, I think it, I think it really speaks to the need to be educated before making any even subtle changes and especially any exotic changes, you know, for instance, moving from the, the federal to the, to the private market. 

CP: So, and just to kind of circle back it, it like I think of if my mom wasn't in the room, if she wasn't an advocate for me when I was 15 years old and I just kind of blindly said I'll just get this fusion. Like, I think, man, that would be different. Maybe not now, but L4 L5 would have soon been where an extra and then I get a fusion there. And like, we know what happens in the future. So it's good to have an advocate who can say, hey, mate, don't make an irreversible decision if you don't know the details. Maybe get that second opinion, maybe check with someone who is another expert in the field. Just make sure you right make the right decision, whether it's finances or a surgery.

SG: Yeah, yeah, right. Sometimes they can be equally painful as well. So Connor, tell me about So what kind? So After the DPT, tell me about the different type of offerings you have for students. Like what kind of services does your company provide?

CP: Yeah. So I always think of it in kind of like 3 different buckets of, of what we do. So we help people with their student loans and, and we do that in a few different ways.

So the first way is if you're a PT, really we help everybody, but we love helping PTs because my wife and I are PTs. We know what it's like. We're literally in those shoes. So you can book a one-on-one consult with us and and I'll look at your whole situation. That's where people are just like, tell me the right answer. I want to know the details. I want to know the pros and cons. And then we make that decision together, right? Like I'm not going to tell you exactly what to do, but I will break it down and say here is your optimal options. Let's see which one feels the best.

The other thing is for the people who want a DIY, you know, you can just take the online course and again, that will take you from knowing nothing to knowing what you need to know to make the best decision for yourself. So those are kind of our offerings for for PTS, new grads, people in in school who have student loans. 

The other ways that we help people are we partner with universities. So that's again kind of where it actually started. So started giving lectures at universities educating people and realized I can't give people everything they need in one hour because I tried that and then I tried to do 2 hours and I still couldn't do that. So that's where I created the online course and we actually partnered with universities who want to give their students like state-of-the-art, you know, student loan repayment information, personal finance understanding from a DPT perspective. So you can get finances from anybody, but if you want to learn in a PT context and, and I created the course and I actually created it using the patient client management model because treating your finances is not all that different than treating a patient. And I just take that framework to make the, the financy, the confusing terms just a little bit more tangible in a familiar way. So that's the second way.

And the third way is we actually partner with businesses. So, you know, we've done some teaching events for businesses for employee recruitment. We've actually done it as an employee benefit to say, Hey, we know that student debt is an issue for you because we've heard that from countless people we're hiring. So we help businesses essentially help their employees with satisfaction and retention and recruitment by understanding their student debt.
 
SG: That's great. And I, I would love to see this become kind of AI know that they have to have the exit interviews on federal loans and things like that. And when I was teaching at the University of New England, that was, you know, I could just tell something was different in the air that day after students came out of that meeting. Like you'd never wanted to have students in class after that meeting when they kind of were all presented with the information about their loan status. It was, it is a very, it is a very sobering day, but I would love to see this kind of offering, you know, to get the, and again, you can't do everything in an hour, maybe it's two hours. You can't do everything in two hours like with our patients, right? You can't, you can't fix every scenario. You can't help, you know, make a significant change always in a session or two. But you can start, you can start the process. And so I have to believe that schools will continue to take a bigger role as part of this. And I was, I could see After the DPT becoming a standard offering at, at many academic programs just to provide that kind of literacy associated with the topic that I think is, is, is so important.

Do you, Connor, is there anything on the horizon meaning active legislation that may diminish future debt for PTs and PTAs?

CP: Yeah, so politics and, and legislation has a huge deal to do with, with student debt in general. And, you know, over the past, you know, really the past 10 years, most things have become more favorable other than the amount of tuition. So at least legislatively, these different income driven repayment plans, they've released some new ones. The most recent is called the save plan. And they've gotten more advantageous over the course of time. So you're essentially paying less and, and getting more forgiven. So different things like that. There's PSLF forgiveness, which is if you work at a nonprofit for 10 years, you can get your loans totally forgiven. And some of the things coming down the pike is potentially not as good. So again, it depends on the election and the way things go. They could potentially reverse some of these things. So again, student loans are always a, a changing atmosphere. You know, in the four or five years I've been doing this, there's been some major, major changes that have ultimately helped tons of student loan borrowers help some people get their loans totally forgiven, which again, is life changing. 

And then there's some different things like they're trying to get at the legislative level, PTs approved to get other types of, you know, loan forgiveness for working in underserved areas, which is kind of crazy that they don't currently apply. But physicians and some of these other doctoring professions are already locked into that. So we're trying to get PTs on board for that as well. So some of the things coming down the pike.

SG: Yeah, that's promising. I mean, it's it needs to be addressed. I mean, it's a major, I don't know, it's a big red flag. I think when you're going to school for six or seven years and you're starting to look on the, the, the debt that you've taken on. I will say also, though, I think that the debt structure sometimes makes, I'm not recommending this, but it makes us hungry at some level. And I think there's been some super cool entrepreneurial activity that has emerged from the fact that, you know, I kind of need a side hustle, not just that I, you know, want a side hustle. I want some type of way to increase my income in part because, you know, the debt structure and I and it, and it kind of hurts me a little bit to hear you say that, you know, people are taking jobs maybe in settings that they're not happy about or, you know, whatever it may be, it's not you, It's not, it's not your passion. Because, you know, the reality is you have to pay your rent, you have to have a vehicle, you have to be able to feed yourself. And that just that just shouldn't happen. And, I don't want to seem too Pollyannish, but I, I just think that you'd like to think that that's not part of the healthcare profession. We're making a significant sacrifice already to the length of the academic program. It'd be nice if there were some incentives that are out there.

The good news is that I think a lot of people, even just by listening today, are starting to tap into some things that could really could make their situation better. Doesn't alive you know it doesn't eliminate their loan, but it but it is you know it can be advantageous.

Now one of the challenges I see in your business is that you know you're trying to create this need. This is not like, you know, so we ended up having review products, right? People know that they, you know, use review products to prepare for a licensing exam. But your business offering is kind of under the radar. Like there aren't a lot of, you know, oh, there's someone who can educate about student loan debt and physical therapy. What is that? So students don't know, academic programs don't know, although it sounds like they're starting to and students are starting to as well. But what how did you promote your business? Like how did you get this off the ground? So you're a busy guy, but how did this happen?

CP: Good question. So again, it kind of started off just like organically of like, oh, that was like an awesome presentation. Like, hey, do you know anyone else who you think would want to get this information to their students? So kind of just the classic like your patient comes in. Hey, refer your friend, they help me with my shoulder word of mouth. He can help you too. So that's the best way, right, is word of mouth. And that's kind of how it started. And it was always the side hustle. So frankly, when it started out, it was just that extra thing that was like, you know, I'm working on this. I'm passionate about this. The goal that I set was, you know, like, I think someday would be really cool if I could affect 1000 DPTS lives like that would be awesome. And, and maybe I'll make some money off of this, maybe not. And even if I don't just think of like how different people's lives would be if they make some of the right decisions and learn some of this stuff early on.

So just started like word of mouth and then it turned into like, OK, maybe I should send some emails. You know, we, we started going to some conferences this past year and said, all right, we're actually going to bite the bullet, pay the money to go to this conference to, to really get in front of some people who, you know, are the decision makers like program directors and, and professors who can really get to this information to the people who need it the most, which are the people who are about to graduate from DPT school. And unfortunately, most DPTs and DPT professors want to truly help their students.

SG: Absolutely.

CP: The problem is just the, you know, oh, it's not in the budget this year. It's not, you know, there's always like an excuse, so to speak.

And then there's, you know, some folks who think, oh, that's not the responsibility of the school, right, to educate on this topic, right? Like, which is a fair argument because you go to DPT school to become a really good clinician, maybe a generalist, pass the board exam and then go on your own. But man, I think the schools who do choose to take this, I think their students notice the difference and say, wow, that's really cool that my school not only wanted me to be a really good PT, but they know this is a problem for me. They probably can't control my tuition price or how much my parents could pay for it, which just makes a difference, right? But they wanted to educate me so I can at least make the right next steps and be aware of these things that otherwise I'd have no idea about. So I think the students…

SG: That’s a great marketing point, we take care of our students like this is something, I mean, you could almost see someone on a tour by the way, when you're coming close to graduating, we bring in an expert, a company in order to provide you with the information necessary to make wise choices. I mean, that that's a, that's a perk that's real. It's really cool. 

And one of the things I just wanted to mention that I love about your business as well is I love the scalability part of it because this information, correct me if I'm wrong, but this information is not necessarily unique to only physical therapy. It would seem appropriate for nurse practitioners, for physician assistants, for occupational therapists. And the model doesn't necessarily change, but you have a completely new target audience that you can reach out to. So when you talk about growth or scaling a business, I see a lot of upside to the model that you've put together. What, what are your thoughts on that?

CP: Yeah, that that's a total dream. So I'm definitely like a dreamer when I think like, OK, what could this be? What could this be in five, five years from now, 10 years from now, Like how could this change even more lives? And that gets me super excited. And then it's like back to like, all right, what's the next right step or the next best step because I don't know, we're always stumbling our way forward. At least I always am, 'cause I'm not making the right decisions all the time, but trying to do the right thing and get to the next best thing and making mistakes along the way and learning a ton. But yeah, that gets me super excited to just think like, yeah, when I do one-on-one consults, I'm not exclusive to PTs, PTs are my favorite. And I can say that because my wife and I are PTs. A lot of our friends are. But, you know, we see physicians, dentists, NPs, chiropractors like we see all these professions. Who really struggle with the same thing of, oh my gosh, I have all this debt. I didn't actually realize what impact it would have on me. 

So, you know, the online course is totally scalable. The, the ability to kind of like get this information in front of these people who can change their lives is, is totally scalable, which is exciting because that wasn't always one place where I thought in the clinic, I can treat one patient at a time or maybe even two or three depending on my schedule and the patients. But I'm very limited. I can only bill out so much per the Medicare guidelines or depending on the insurance. I can only be so effective and there's diminishing returns on the quality of care and all those things I'm doing. But if we can get this information out in mass so people understand these programs that are available to them, they're not magic. They're just you have to know about them and how to take advantage that. That gets me excited if you can't tell.

SG: Absolutely. And, and you know, and I'm glad you've already thought about the scalability piece. I'm glad you're already doing it at some level. That's why I'm, I'm selfishly, I'm glad you're on the now conference circuit, so to speak. So we get to see you at ELC. We get to see you at CSM because I, I love following up with people who've started businesses find out. OK, well, what's happened in the last 6 months since I've seen you and it's, you know, I don't know. I'm going to look forward to that with you and Hannah as well. 

Connor, something we like to ask all of our folks is inspired by a podcast called How I Built This. And that question is when reflecting on your business, how much of your success do you attribute to luck and how much is attributed to intelligence and hard work?

CP: That's a good question and hard to nail it down. I, I definitely don't have a perfect answer for this, but man, I just like thinking big picture. I feel like I've been so lucky just in life, like to have amazing parents, amazing upbringing, like the ability to even like get through DPT school, right? Like I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but you know, I had the ability to at least pass those tests and do things and learn different skills. So I feel like so much of that was just luck being and you know, having the abilities that I had and the interest that I had. And obviously there was a lot of work that went into that and still is as I kind of honed those skills and take like certified student loan professional classes and con-ed. And in the finance world, that is like, holy cow, this is totally different than anything.

So if I had to put a number on it, maybe 50/50. Like I just feel like a lot of life is like being prepared and working really hard to get to that point. But then you have to kind of be lucky enough to say, hey, there's, there's people who believe in me. I've got the right mentors. I was exposed to the right things that kind of led to those opportunities. So maybe 50/50.

SG: I, I think that's, I think that's a great answer. I mean, you know, and I think you're a humble guy. So, I'm going to say that there's more of it is the intelligence and hard work. But you're right, everyone, everyone needs to be put in a good situation. You need to have support. You obviously have some great support from your wife, your family, obviously friends who encourage you in this endeavor. But you know, you're willing to put in the time, you're willing to do the grind. And I, I really admire that. 

Connor, if someone wants to use your services, what is what is the best way to reach out and get in contact with you? 

CP: Yeah, the best way would be just to go to our website so it’s afterthedpt.com. So just After the DPT the words.com, there's a contact page on there. If you, if you send that over to us, you'll probably get directly my wife or me by sending the e-mail. You can also, you know, schedule a consult on there. There's a link to schedule that. But that's the best place to to get a hold of me is afterthedpt.com.

SG: Okay, I think what I might do if I'm a student listener is go to the web page, you know, get the contact information down, put it in a nice card to my program chair saying this would be a wonderful graduation gift for our class and let get Connor in to talk about this. And I, I, I really feel that, you know, when I think about the, the folks are in PT education, I believe, you know, if someone brings this to them, I, my guess is in most cases, it's probably a viable offering with enough advance notice. And you know, there's some budgetary implications, but I'm guessing it's not outrageous. And certainly when you're doing that for 40, 50, 60 students at a whack, it becomes, you know, incredibly cost effective.

So I don't know, just put it out there. If you're a student, it's a relevant thing. Why pay for yourself if you can have the academic program join you? And then if you find you need some additional counseling, obviously because your situation is unique and many student situations are unique, then you always have the option to drill down. But at least you kind of have that base. 

CP: Yeah. And that was, that was the dream when I started. This was like, how do I help other DPTs without them having to pay more because they're already the ones and tons and tons of debt. And I was like, if I can get the universities to cover this or their business to cover this, you know, now they're offering a huge benefit, a huge value add, and it's not coming out of the student's pocket.

With that said, we do have students who choose to do it on their own because or new grads because they say, hey, I still know that I'm going to get value out of this and it's worthwhile. But yeah, thanks for the plug.

SG: No, no, I wasn't. No, I look, I believe in this. I have no interest in who I promote on this show and who I don't. There's no like, you know, whatever I just believe in, I believe in this product. I believe that this is a huge problem facing our profession. If we can do something to make it better, then we can potentially change, change people's lives. 

You know, I don't think that's being overly dramatic because finances are a big part of opportunity, health, you know, and every other factor. And so anything we can do that's within the, you know, that's legitimate and ethical, which is clearly what we're talking about here. Then you got to take advantage of the opportunities that are available. And that's, and that's something that's that is available to us. 

So Connor, hey, thanks a lot for joining us today. I, I really appreciate it. I love the work that you and Hannah do. I also love the fact that like you didn't go out and do something lame like write a review book and just prepare people for the licensing exam. Like that's so in the box, right? That was very, you know, whatever. Like I did it, it was okay, but what you've done is like, come on, a physical therapist graduating and starting a business on student student loan consulting. I mean, that is that is outside the box. And we're actually one of the people that I'm going to be interviewing real soon. He had a little piece on that. It's like, okay, let's not just do the concierge clinic. Okay, let's think that there's more to entrepreneurism than just, you know, the same thing everything else everyone else is doing. And so you're really out there in terms of what you selected to take on. And it's also something that you had no background in, presumably, right. And you, you put in the time to become an expert. Anyone who just listens to this, it's pretty clear you know what you're talking about and what's going on. 
So I give you like double kudos for the fact that you took something on that you had to do all the scout work, you had to do the upfront, you took a chance and it's paying off for you. And I'm really proud of you. You both are doing that. And I can't wait when I see you, you know, at ELC in October to hear more. And then I'll, I'll get another update at, at CSM in Houston in February. So thanks a lot for joining us. I really appreciate it. 

CP: No, thanks so much for having me, Scott. And yeah, I don't think you give yourself enough credit there. What you've done has impacted many, many DPTs lives. And yeah, hopefully someday down the road we can look back and say, wow, we've done the same thing. So yeah, thanks for having me.

SG: I appreciate those kind words. It's, it's very nice. I'd like to thank all the listeners today. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did and we'll see you with our next podcast. Take care.

Voiceover: And there you have it. Another dose of PT-preneurial inspiration to fuel your journey. Check out more inspiring stories from PTs and PTAs out there making waves by listening and subscribing to our podcasts on your favorite streaming platforms. And don't forget to rate and review this podcast. Thanks for listening.